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Reply | Forward Message #100443 of 105515 |
RE: SV: Antw: RE: [wifdiscussion] Re: Defending USSR

The conflict was between Churchill and Halifax, not Chamberlain who has
gone by then. It was a pretty close shave because Churchill went against
traditional english policy by fighting GE at the expense of economic
bancruptcy. Which they were until helped by the US. Halifax wanted to
start 'normal, traditional' peace talks Chruchill wanted what in effect
the people although perhaps not the political class wanted: to fight
until Hitler was defeated. He succeeded in carrying the country and
parliament with him. But it was not a sure thing.

Not sure how such peace talks would've panned out as I can't quite see
AH giving all that much back. Psychologically they would've been
disastrous for England's further prosecution of the war if they'd broken
down imo.

Modern english - while having plenty of 'german' words - is actually
bastardized french, not german. Of course, AH considered the English
mostly an arian race.

>>> Håkon Fløystad <hakon.floystad@...> 14.01.2009 00:39 >>>
> what would have happened if Germany and Italy
> had stopped there and simply told Churchill "we are done...we
> will fortify our holdings, and if you want to negotiate a
> peace with us, we would be willing to turn over Belgium and
> Netherlands to their governments, Norway to its government,
> and return all of France but the Alsace-Lorraine to France in
> return for a peace with England

It is my impression that this is exactly what Hitler tried to do
directly after France, probably even before France atually fell. I also
seem to recall about this causing a divide within the British
governement, ending with Churchill replacing Chamberlain as prime
minister and holding his famous "we shall fight them on the beaches"
speech. Iirc, it was a rather close call at the time. It's certainly my
impression that the Hitler would be agree to "liberate" most of the
conquered countries to achieve this. In Mein Kampf, he talks of settling
the account with France, usually interprted as removing them as a
military threat, but (except from Alsace/Lorraine of course), he does
not have territorial claims there. Presumably, he considered eastern
Europe and Russia to the Urals to be enough.

Certainly, Hitler had also declared in Mein Kampf that the CW was in
fact his most favoured ally vs Bolshevism, which is kind of obvous if
you look at where the anglo saxons come from, and see that in light of
his racially oriented world view. (Modern English is still considered a
dialect of lowland German by some linguists, together with Saxish,
Flemish and Dutch).

After that point, I don't think it was really realistic again, at least
not without giving up more or less every gain thay had main after
DOW-ing on Poland. England had battled the French for 20 year, and I
think they were prepared to do the same with the Germans, if they had
to.

I have trouble seeing that anything short of crushing Russia or
successfully blockading the CW food supply would shatter the British
morale more than it was shattered when France fell.

Cheers
Hakon



Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:11 am

herbertgratz
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Message #100443 of 105515 |
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... It is my impression that this is exactly what Hitler tried to do directly after France, probably even before France atually fell. I also seem to recall...
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 13, 2009
11:39 pm

The conflict was between Churchill and Halifax, not Chamberlain who has gone by then. It was a pretty close shave because Churchill went against traditional...
Herbert Gratz
herbertgratz
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Jan 14, 2009
9:11 am

But let's think about what exactly the CW could do if Germany simply maintained a defensive posture and didn't DOW Russia. If the US doesn't come into the...
Devin Cutler
devincutler
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Jan 14, 2009
12:41 am

By maintaining the blockade, as well as their patience, the Brits could do to Hitler the same they did vs Napoleon. Simply wait him out. Sooner or later, he...
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 14, 2009
1:24 am

Everybody (the Allies, the Germans and the Russians themselves) thought that RU was finished 3 weeks into B. GE considered this likely before they set out....
Herbert Gratz
herbertgratz
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Jan 14, 2009
9:25 am

... Certainly. Stalin had no interest whatsoever in helping Churchill, simply for the sake of helping. This doesn't change the fact that war between Germany...
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 14, 2009
10:07 am

... I would never try that as the CW, nor suggest it as Russia. I don't have THAT much confidence the suggestion. It would be fun to play the Axis vs somebody...
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 14, 2009
10:08 am

Then again, both Guderian and Manstein are accused of twisting the truth a bit with regards to what kind of mistakes can be blamed on Hitler, putting...
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 14, 2009
10:13 am

... If 3d10 works for this purpose, then there is no need, thank you very much. ... At least pointless for you to be in the discussion, since you keep bringing...
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 14, 2009
10:46 am

It seems that the conversation/exchange of views has taken a turn for the worse. Needlessly imo. Since I didn't imply cheating, just perhaps getting away with...
Herbert Gratz
herbertgratz
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Jan 14, 2009
12:41 pm

Herbert, your points are spot on and I agree (and have repeatedly) with all of them. The mistake you're making is the same one I originally made - you believe...
ecka65
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Jan 14, 2009
10:55 am

... A suggesten you didn't even bother to respond to.... In my latest mail to you, oback and tom on this, I also suggested alternatives that would let you play...
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 14, 2009
12:14 pm

... alternatives that would let you play at daytime during weekends, though those times seem to crash with the timetables of our american players (at least...
ecka65
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Jan 14, 2009
12:58 pm

... I didnt specify an exact time, but my saturday evening would be your sunday morning, and my friday evening would be your saturday morning. It appears that...
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 14, 2009
1:23 pm

Awww...c'mon guys...I was looking forward to game reports!!!;-) C ... your initial assertion (ie that Super-Balbo has a counter strategy that does not require...
jagdtiger14
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Jan 14, 2009
4:29 pm

Too Bad... it looks like our game is not going to happen. For the record, Ecka, I did clearly state in my email to you: please post the times that you are...
oblack_lancero
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Jan 15, 2009
7:40 am

... No, never said that. I feel if the Russian has got the guts to defend forward and try to hold the garrison ratio than good luck to them for trying. It...
ecka65
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Jan 15, 2009
10:08 am

... This same argument has come up before. That time, iirc, the auther (don't quite remember who) didn't really mean that Stalin should be able to DOW in 1940,...
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 15, 2009
11:51 am

I caught this discussion a bit on the tail side and have been going through the archive looking for a definition of Super Balbo. Can somebody just redefine it...
Gudmundur Jonsson
bigoilslackey
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Jan 15, 2009
12:02 pm

Super-Balbo is a term that was first created on the MWiF forums that is used to describe an all out attack on Russia in 1941, preferrably by all 3 axis powers....
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 15, 2009
12:43 pm

Fearfull strategy : I don't know how to counter that, maybe a russian depth defense, no stuffing at the border. The allies can send all the BPs they can to...
Michel Desjardins
micheljq
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Jan 15, 2009
1:52 pm

... Certainly they may, but by controlling Turkey and the Caucasus, the Germans can use rail to relocate between fronts, while the British need to use...
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 15, 2009
2:53 pm

The railroad in Turkey is long and curves a lot in the south of the country. The british in 1941 can muster a sizeable force and try to cut it from different...
Michel Desjardins
micheljq
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Jan 15, 2009
3:53 pm

I'd actually forgotten about railing through Istanbul. Except for sending the 4 corps required to align Spain to Syria, I've never started pushing southwards...
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 15, 2009
4:15 pm

I think you refer to playing with Limited Access across Straits in a later post. This severely restricts what you can get into and through Turkey. The times...
paulderynck
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Jan 15, 2009
10:29 pm

... I answered this in an earlier post....
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 15, 2009
10:53 pm

What I'd prefer to see and believe is more relevant is if the "Super Balbo" strategy can be implemented under RAW. If so, then a strategy has indeed been...
ecka65
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Jan 16, 2009
12:47 am

I think it can, if not quite as powerful as you can get if the USSR isn't allowed to stuff. In 1940, the Germans can ensure the Italians have 5 bp/turn by...
Christopher Askwith
abishai_ju87
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Jan 16, 2009
3:17 am

Fly in the ointment to the below: the Italians do have to have some way to get their aircraft around the German border zone since they cannot fly through it....
Christopher Askwith
abishai_ju87
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Jan 16, 2009
4:31 am

... a fix is required or even of much interest. The pact and garrison rule(s) work both ways for both parties involved and are not optional. It's you that are...
Håkon Fløystad
hfloystad
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Jan 16, 2009
10:30 am
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