Hakon, I got an excellent idea on how to avoid a super-Balbo in your
games: allow stuffing. Thios solves it at one stroke.

Actually, it is a bit pointless to have this conversation at all: has
anybody else, who IS playing with stuffing, run into a Hakon-type
super-Balbo? If not, then perhaps your difficulties are due to chucking
a key-element of the Russo-German balance of power.

As far as most of the points go: I think that in the discussion you
make the Axis force go much further than you'd ever be able to on table.
With your indicated build structure there is nowhere in hell you can get
all this stuff by M/J 41. Even assuming 0 losses up to then. I'd suggest
that you keep track of your opponents builds if they play this strategy
and see that they don't put an extra unit or two on the traxck each
turn! :-) (Only joking but it just doesn't pan out.)

>>> Håkon Fløystad <hakon.floystad@...> 13.01.2009 20:15 >>>
> If the GE army fights in FR for most of 40 that's fine.
> You're already behind your schedule.

No, I'm not. The schedule is to take FR preferrably in the J/A, which
is already past half (making it "most of"). Even when FR survived until
S/O, I've been able to get into position in time for Barbarossa every
game so far, though with a small margin a couple of times.

> Once FR is vichyed CW can bring ist bmbs to the Med.

Sure, and if it happens before my schedule, the net effect is NIL. This
leaves 2 turns, even asuming you don't spend time getting there, and by
then the italian air force is not so insignificant any more. In
addition, you will face german fighters.

> The
> difference is that normally CW does not own Sardinia and
> Sicily thus has no good bomber base to conduct strat bombing vs. IT.

You will definitely not take Sicily in 1940 ;-) Try to land your
invason force (a whole div), then survive the minimum of 1 notional
factors there, and see if you can avoid being blitzed back into the sea
on the following impulse.

Sardinia is quite possibly a UK base by this time, but in no way
guaranteed.

> I fail to see why anyone would not bomb just because the
> enemy is not producing with all his factories. This is poppycock.

Sure they can bomb if they want. Maybe once in a while they will even
take a way a production point or 2 from Italy beyond the 11th. Seen it,
didnt make a difference, and is even included in the italian budget.

> In most of the games CW will be at war with IT in 1940. In a
> few it might not. Although why this should be so when IT has
> already dowed FR is a bit of a mystery.

I don't really see why the CW needs to be in a hurry to DOW if Italy is
already at war with France. If the US had only crappy chits vs Germany,
then sure, dow at once, but if the Ge-pool has a few very high chits at
the end of 1939, I would rather wait for it to be deluted somehow, and
hopefully get more forces into positon before DOW-ing.

> Once that happens -
> and particular with a super Balbo in the making - there is
> little reason for CW to stay out of the game. Much better to
> grad Sardinia straightaway and start using the FR AND CW
> fleets vs. IT.

The FR fleet can be used vs IT regardless of what the CW does, and the
CW fleet is not really that superior that early, especially if they
didnt get to do a strong port strike (because of a german milchcow in la
spezia, for instance).

> USE is diluted in J/F 40 no reason to wait a second longer.

What kind of chits do you think are in the american US/IT pool of
already drawn chits during the first turn of 1940? There are not going
to be so many 1940 chits there yet, are there?

> If you want to blitz me straightaway into the sea as is your
> preferred reaction - according to your own words - you will
> need several MECHs in IT, certainly not 0.

Italy starts with 1 mech and 1 HQ-A. Those usually stay in Italy.

> I didn't have any trouble using all GE Stukas in my B41s when
> I wa
s playing GE. If I kept some back it was to improve my
> defense not because I couldn't use them.

Funny reasoning. In any case, compared to your games, and contrary to
your claims, I would have at least as many Stukas in Russia as you. And
I would have more actions with which to use them. In my experience, I
use ALL german air missions, even with Super-Balbo.

> I would've missed
> them had it been necessary to have them sit in Italy. I'll
> allow the naval Stuka as an exception.

Ok, except that one, it is unlikely that I would use ANY stukas in
Italy. And certainly only if i KNEW an invasion was coming, not only
because of the threat of one.

> But this doesn't
> increase the Axis airpoer by all that much. Moreover it can't
> react to the two box so either all your air is in the one box
> or you need an air missuion for the Stuka.

Sure, if that stuka is to be used at sea, it does require an air
mission at some time. Germany can afford 1, since they save 1-2 on the
eastern front every impulse that Italy takes an air. But that would not
happen until after there is an enemy in the sea zone, since that stuka
is also very good on land.

> GE INF isn't dross. But GE MIL and GARR are. In particular,
> they are slooow. If you want to smash, don't even think of
> bringing these second rate units along.

German 5-3 MIL are not dross at all in 1941, in fact they are about the
same as the average russian inf. For defending fairly secure points in
the line, screening the Leningrad group in forest hexes, etc, they are
perfect. And the best MIL units can even be used offensively. I usually
concentrate all my 2-mover, decent factor MIL in northern Poland, behind
the attack group, and they have just enough movement to do exactly what
they are supposed to do up there.

> I don't quite get it: you just said that you DON#T garrison
> against partisans.

It's not an absolute yes or no, thought I'd already spelled it out. I
definitley have it as a requirement in this phase that any country
should have enough garrisons to complete cancel the garrison threat.
Instead, I guard the important hexes, send in units that I have no
better use for, and if a partisan does appear, I kill it (even if i risk
losing a hungarian or 2 on crappy rolls).

> Now you do. Fair enough but now the GE
> army in RU is not weaker and slower than normal (due to
> incorporation of second line 'Anti-partisan' units) but
> smaller.

I would like to see your "usual". :)

> Can't see how you can expect to stretch the RU under
> these circumstances and get anywhere close to threatening the
> Murmansk line.

Actually, my experience surpassed my wildest expectations.... I wonder
how you can be so certain though, if you have never even seen the
strategy.

> You know that I've never accepted your views on stuffing as
> valid and continue to do so.

That still doesn't alter the fact that "no stuffing" is the premise of
this entire discussion.

> In fact, the way your B41 force
> shapes up seems to me a strong argument for the validity of
> the present pact rule:

As for the validity, I disagree, but I am not going into another
discussion of that, at least until you bring up an argument that I
haven't answered before.

But I certainly think that Super-Balbo makes stuffing more ATTRACTIVE
for the USSR.

Cheers
Hakon