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Question on non-euclidean geometry.   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #80408 of 82036 |
Re: [sfconsim-l] Question on non-euclidean geometry.

Jonathan wrote:
> In spherical and hyperbolic geometry we see spaces that are Euclidean on
> infinitesimal scales but become very non-euclidean on larger scales.
> However, the only non-euclidean geometry I know of that, like Euclidean
> geometry, is consistent on all scales is Lorentzian geometry, which is
> derived by flipping signs around in the Euclidean metric tensor.
> (Actually, come to think of it, I can think of Taxicab and Chebyshev
> geometry too). But other than that, are there any other non-Euclidean
> geometries that are the same on all scales? For instance, where the
> angles of a triangle add up to a constant other than 180, or where the
> ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is something
> other than pi?

I think you'd have to be more specific than this to get at exactly what
it is you're asking. Non-Euclidean spaces include all kinds of other
weird cases that you probably don't want, such as fractal or other
non-differential spaces that aren't of much use here.

So first I'm guessing you're talking about a Riemannian manifold, which
requires differentiability (and thus "smoothness"). It's hard to
imagine a curved space(time) where the shapes of circles or triangles
are not distorted over distances, since that's what curvature _is_.
However, since you invoked Lorentzian geometry, I'm guessing you're
including four-dimensional spacetimes and thus also Minkowski space.

Since what you're asking about doesn't sound possible, I'll come as
close as I can, which is to guess that you're asking about maximally
symmetric four-dimensional space(time)s, which are spaces with the
maximum number of Killing vectors. These correspond to spaces that are
homogeneous and isotropic -- note, though, that that means that they're
homogeneous and isotropic _in all four coordinates_, so they must be so
not just in space but also in time. For metrics with signature (-+++),
this includes Minkowski space.

There do exist curved spaces that are maximally symmetric. There are
two cases: positively and negatively curved. These actually have
names: the de Sitter and anti-de Sitter space, respectively. These
correspond to exponentially expanding (or contracting) spaces. In
modern cosmology, they even have an application: They would be the
spacetimes resulting from a universe with no matter or energy, but a
nonzero vacuum energy that corresponds to a nonzero cosmological
constant (positive for de Sitter, negative for anti-de Sitter). If dark
energy explanations of vacuum energy are correct and the vacuum energy
is roughly constant and/or still dominates very late in the Universe,
the final stage of the Universe's evolution would look like a de Sitter
space, with vacuum energy dominant and matter and other energy
contributions negligible.

--
Erik Max Francis && max@... && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM/Y!M/Skype erikmaxfrancis
War is like love, it always finds a way.
-- Bertolt Brecht, 1898-1956



Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:54 pm

erikmaxfrancis
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Message #80408 of 82036 |
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In spherical and hyperbolic geometry we see spaces that are Euclidean on infinitesimal scales but become very non-euclidean on larger scales. However, the only...
Jonathan
linguofreak
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Jul 10, 2009
8:24 am

... Sure. If you like the taxicab and supremum geometry, then any other norm will also do. Generally, you take a plain old coordinate space and take any...
Isaac Kuo
mechdan
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Jul 10, 2009
2:22 pm

... I think you'd have to be more specific than this to get at exactly what it is you're asking. Non-Euclidean spaces include all kinds of other weird cases...
Erik Max Francis
erikmaxfrancis
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Jul 10, 2009
8:55 pm

... Well, maybe. Depends on if they have interesting properties that I can easily wrap my mind around. This is more a mental voyage of exploration than...
Jonathan
linguofreak
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Jul 11, 2009
12:15 am

... Well, I answered precisely that question (with the additional assumption of isotropy) in quite a bit of depth in the part of my reply you strangely clipped...
Erik Max Francis
erikmaxfrancis
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Jul 11, 2009
11:19 pm

... Yeah, that does look interesting. You and Isaac also mentioned fractal spaces: Could you give a few examples? ... Well, this is more of a geometrical...
Jonathan
linguofreak
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Jul 12, 2009
4:02 am

... I was talking about the other types of non-Euclidean spaces you might be unintentionally talking about that also weren't Reimannian manifolds. I'm not sure...
Erik Max Francis
erikmaxfrancis
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Jul 12, 2009
7:43 am

... No, I'm not talking about two spaces for each timelike coordinate. I'm saying that you get two Euclidean spaces on the manifold with a Lorentzian relation...
Jonathan
linguofreak
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Jul 12, 2009
7:19 pm

... They're not separate spaces for each timelike coordinate. All five (in this case) dimensions interact with each other through the metric. The line...
Erik Max Francis
erikmaxfrancis
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Jul 12, 2009
10:53 pm

... Where did I ever say anything about separate spaces for each timelike coordinate? ... Of course. I'm not saying the (+++) space and the (--) space are...
Jonathan
linguofreak
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Jul 13, 2009
4:27 am

... Oh, I see, you're trying to talk about the different sets of spacelike vs. timelike coordinates as being each Euclidean on their own, but with a Lorentzian...
Erik Max Francis
erikmaxfrancis
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Jul 13, 2009
5:01 am

... True. I was making the assumption in this case that the metric was flat, in which case it is Euclidean if all the signs are the same....
Jonathan
linguofreak
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Jul 13, 2009
8:04 pm

... Err, I meant contravariant, of course, for those who were paying close attention. Upper indices are contravariant; lower indices are covariant. (To my...
Erik Max Francis
erikmaxfrancis
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Jul 12, 2009
11:08 pm

... My quesiton was a fairly broad one. It doesn't matter if the space involved is a Reimannian manifold, I'm basically just out looking for weird things. ... ...
Jonathan
linguofreak
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Jul 13, 2009
4:38 am

... That's what I figured. I know little about physics, so I couldn't have come at the question from the point of view of just what's interesting to...
mechdan@...
mechdan
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Jul 13, 2009
2:03 pm
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