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How quick to develop/field space warships?   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #76314 of 82041 |
How quick to develop/field space warships?

In the background of my Pax Martiana game, there are:

regular robot shipments of LOX/LH2 fuel into Earth orbit
manned stations on/over Mars
manned stations over Earth, Mars, and Venus
civilian manned and unmanned spacecraft supporting these stations

Not long before that start of the game, the first space warships are
commissioned specifically to blockade Earth from incoming spacecraft by the USA.

How quickly could this be done? You can assume:

There's a moderate sense of urgency. The new administration wants to field
something in Earth orbit within 18 months, before the mid-term elections.

The USAF has been itching for an excuse for space warships for years, and
eagerly dusts off some sketchy paper studies. Most of these emphasize pure
laser armament, but pure laser armament is rejected mainly due to the influence
of aerospace lobbyists.

There are some off-the-shelf naval ABM/ASAT missile systems, albeit never used
in combat. These require the integrated naval radar systems. Aerial sensor
systems lack the required range; space sensor systems lack the required
resolution (they lack cooperative trilateration capability).

There are mature laser weapons already fielded and used in terrestrial combat.
These are particularly important for anti-aircraft work since they don't have to
fight gravity/drag like SAMs and they're cost effective to use against small
UCAVs.

There are some interservice rivalry issues, as USN personnel will be lent to the
USAF to support the radar/missile systems in the field. The Navy sees these
space warships as little more than dumb rockets used to haul Navy hardware into
the battlefield. But they can't wrest rocket ships from the USAF unless the
boosters are sea launched (ala Sea Dragon). The USAF wants to immediately start
development of "native" space missile systems, so they don't have any more navy
hardware foisted upon them. The USN wants to revive Sea Dragon so they can shut
out the USAF altogether.

The basic idea will be to put together a "minor" modification to a civilian ship
design, slapping on off-the-shelf naval ABM radar/missiles and commodity lasers.

However, see the stories of the M247 Sergeant York DIVAD and various criticisms
of NASA's Constellation program for cautionary tales about trying to slap
together "minor" modifications to off-the-shelf technology.

I'm guessing, based on typical development times for modern aircraft/ships, that
this development could take several years...but there's pressure to field
something faster than that.

Conversely, the Martians will be literally slapping weapons and armor onto
civilian ships (think Confederate ironclads). They don't have the time or
resources to figure out precision terminal guidance capability, so they'll just
have to live with civilian grade guidance precision. This will turn out not to
be a big disadvantage, since smoke/chaff create significant uncertainty zones
anyway, and because enemy missiles have grossly excessive mass ratios (due to
the original surface launch requirements).

Some hardware can be economically smuggled to the Martians before the
blockade--preferably civilian hardware, though. Rocket thrusters and controller
hardware are good. Military radar and ABM/ASAT missiles are too big/heavy and
too traceable. Lasers may be too big/heavy but they are less traceable.

In gameplay terms, I'm hoping to remove the strategic decisions of production
away from the players, to simplify playability. This simplifies the game from a
strategic/operational/tactical game down to operation/tactical. Production is
simply a matter of new "stuff" becoming available. The strategic level becomes
purely a matter of logistics, and those logistical decisions are plenty rich
enough already. You have to decide if/when to launch your Jovian tankers to
Earth or Mars...realizing it takes 3 years for them to arrive. Will you have
control over that space in that time? How will this affect the decisions of the
enemy? Conversely, will your forces have resupply when they need it?

But I still need an idea of what the design loop will be like for new designs.
Wartime can accelerate R&D, or it can retard R&D. Both the USA and Mars
sympathizers will be doing R&D on Earth, so better hardware may become available
to the players with time.

Thanks!

Isaac Kuo mechdan@...







Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:48 pm

mechdan
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Message #76314 of 82041 |
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How quick to develop/field space warships? In the background of my Pax Martiana game, there are: regular robot shipments of LOX/LH2 fuel into Earth orbit ...
Isaac Kuo
mechdan
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Jan 14, 2009
4:48 pm

... USS Freedom's timeline is about a best case for a new category of warship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_ship 2004: preliminary design 2005:...
Henry Cobb
henry_cobb
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Jan 14, 2009
5:26 pm

Another data point for "shortest" would be the P-51, which was ordered on 1 May 1940 and first entered combat on 10 May 1942. ...
James Sterrett
jamessterret...
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Jan 14, 2009
5:42 pm

A better reference might be the development of WWI fighters from civilian racers and military scout a/c. That represents an adaptation of an early unarmed...
Matthew S. Taylor
taylorsvillemd
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Jan 14, 2009
6:33 pm

... I can't get complete data but there's typically a 6 month gap between the aircraft's first flight and its introduction into service, even when the new...
James Sterrett
jamessterret...
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Jan 15, 2009
1:41 pm

... warship. You mean a worst case! What a horrible, horrible, little program. HMS Dreadnought is a best case--a year and a day. plus another year for...
mechdan
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Jan 14, 2009
6:36 pm

... During WWII, both the Americans and British met an urgent need for maritime air cover by converting existing merchant ships into escort carriers. The most...
Coridon Henshaw
coridonhenshaw
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Jan 14, 2009
6:31 pm

... A lot of this depends on the details of your technology, though. Just taking a merchant hull and putting missile racks on it will produce something that's...
Anthony Jackson
ac_jackson
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Jan 14, 2009
6:49 pm

... How can you have large off-world populations and not have a "United States Space Guard"? Even if they never fight anybody they'll still be doing search...
Henry Cobb
henry_cobb
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Jan 14, 2009
7:01 pm

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Coridon Henshaw <coridonhenshaw2@... ... Paging Zoe Brain... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]...
eric henry
ehenry0623
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Jan 14, 2009
7:36 pm

... Simple, because the Pentagon doesn't want it. In the absense of anyone wanting to spend the time and resources on standing search-and-rescue forces, those...
Isaac Kuo
mechdan
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Jan 14, 2009
8:01 pm

... And the shareholders are going to pay for the delta-V usage, diversion from mission? At some point the megacorps are going to scream for government...
Henry Cobb
henry_cobb
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Jan 14, 2009
9:23 pm

... fragments. Having a closer sensor helps, especially if you want to stick a video camera up against a window to look for signs of life. ... Except that...
Jonathan
linguofreak
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Jan 14, 2009
9:47 pm

... The more I think about sticking USN ABM/ASAT missiles on a civilian spacecraft, the more it seems problematic. The missiles are designed to live in 1atm,...
Isaac Kuo
mechdan
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Jan 14, 2009
8:48 pm

... Oh, the development cycle for the _missiles_ might be considerable, but if you have the missiles, installing them on a craft is not hard. ... If you want...
Anthony Jackson
ac_jackson
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Jan 14, 2009
9:20 pm

... put every missile in an indiviual airtight cocoon at 1 bar .. cut open both ends with line charges a few seconds before firing and pull the front cap out...
Markus Baur
agricola64
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Jan 14, 2009
9:32 pm

... Why the cord? Ensure the front cap gets released first and the escaping atmosphere would do a decent job of pushing it out of the wouldn't it? If you just...
Jason
jasonrpatten
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Jan 14, 2009
9:35 pm

... if you are unlucky the cap will be blown straight ahead - and still be in the missiles way when it blasts out ... thats why i want ot be SURE its out of...
Markus Baur
agricola64
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Jan 14, 2009
9:40 pm

Makes sense. I was thinking though you need a material that is going to stay Elastic at EXTREMELY cold temps. Unless you are going to warm the bungee cord,...
Jason
jasonrpatten
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Jan 14, 2009
9:49 pm

... if the bungee is a problem then use a steel wire line with the spring powered mechanism that curls up a window shade .. or a small solid ricket that pushes...
Markus Baur
agricola64
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Jan 14, 2009
9:55 pm

Current Generation US ASAT missiles at least, and I imagine most future surface based ASAT missiles, aren't really suitable for exo-atmospheric launch at all....
jamealbeluvien
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Jan 15, 2009
10:17 am

The big problem with armed merchies is that they're only expected to survive small scale random hits. They're not expected to keep operating instantly...
Henry Cobb
henry_cobb
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Jan 15, 2009
11:28 am

... True, but how significant an issue this is depends on the degree to which any ship can expect to take a hit and keep on going. It's perfectly possible that...
Anthony Jackson
ac_jackson
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Jan 15, 2009
5:15 pm

... http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/ddg-51-flt1.htm The ships have steel superstructures, aluminum stacks, and the first comprehensive CBR...
Henry Cobb
henry_cobb
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Jan 15, 2009
5:38 pm

... Indeed not. In fact here Fleet Tactics and Coastal Combat by Wayne P. Hughes ...
eric henry
ehenry0623
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Jan 16, 2009
1:23 am

... True, I hadn't really thought about those issues. Still, we're talking about 1.5 centuries from now, so they'll be using different weapon systems. So...
mechdan
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Jan 15, 2009
1:05 pm

... If it's got an air-breathing stage, it's almost certainly a two-stage missile, and stage 2 will be able to initiate launch at very low pressure....
Anthony Jackson
ac_jackson
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Jan 15, 2009
5:16 pm

... true, BVut it's still ages more efficient to grab as much oxidizer out of the air as possible rather than dragging all of it along with you. ... altitudes....
jamealbeluvien
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Jan 16, 2009
2:04 am

... Grabbing oxidizer means adding mass and bulk and hardware and compression drag. It's not at all obvious that it's better. However, I do agree that it's...
mechdan
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Jan 16, 2009
3:46 am
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