Michael,
  Oh... thats my fault.  The 80 strips is the old
packaging which I am transfering over to the new 24
strip packs.  sorry for the confusion. It would be 48
bases per bag. I still have some updating to do on the
site, so I will get that done soon.  I just got back
from one con to a sick child and now I am prepping for
more conventions, Little Wars and Recon.

Where are you from?

If we can find a decent middle of the road for
packagin, I wouldnt be adverse to making up specific
bags for you, depending on what you need.  That way if
you dont want a full bag you can just get what you
need.  The details are under the unit bulder portion
of Baccus.  That way you can literly make your own
units and sets.

Steve



--- Michael DAuben <mdauben@...> wrote:

> --- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, Steve DeYoung
> <stdeyoung@...>
> wrote:
>
> > the figures used by Eric are H&R, not Baccus so
> > there might be some gaps.
>
> Yes, I saw that.  It was just that Eric was praising
> the Baccus
> figures so much on his website I thought I would go
> with them.  :-)
>
> > Alot of people proxy the Roman Ballista and Roman
> > Generals for their artillery and leaders.  You
> might
> > want to add a figure or two from the carthaginian
> pack
> > to make it more suitable for that faction though.
>
> Sounds reasonable.  :-)
>
> > you were to cut all the strips in half each bag
> would
> > give you 80 bases worth of figures,
>
> Looking at the Baccus website, I thought that the
> figures were about
> 100 per pack (24 strips x 4 figs/strip) or am I
> misunderstanding the
> description of the packs? :-o
>
> If that is right, using the basing recomended by
> Eric (2
> figs/9mmx9mm base) that would give 48 bases per bag.
>  Right?
>
> > or visit my website at www.heritage-studios.com
>
> Cool!  I didn't know that Baccus had a US
> distributor (I didn't see
> that on their website anywhere).  I guess I'll be
> placing an order
> with you soon then. ;-)
>
> Thanks for the reply!  :-D
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>

--- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, Steve DeYoung <stdeyoung@...>
wrote:

> the figures used by Eric are H&R, not Baccus so
> there might be some gaps.

Yes, I saw that.  It was just that Eric was praising the Baccus
figures so much on his website I thought I would go with them.  :-)

> Alot of people proxy the Roman Ballista and Roman
> Generals for their artillery and leaders.  You might
> want to add a figure or two from the carthaginian pack
> to make it more suitable for that faction though.

Sounds reasonable.  :-)

> you were to cut all the strips in half each bag would
> give you 80 bases worth of figures,

Looking at the Baccus website, I thought that the figures were about
100 per pack (24 strips x 4 figs/strip) or am I misunderstanding the
description of the packs? :-o

If that is right, using the basing recomended by Eric (2
figs/9mmx9mm base) that would give 48 bases per bag.  Right?

> or visit my website at www.heritage-studios.com

Cool!  I didn't know that Baccus had a US distributor (I didn't see
that on their website anywhere).  I guess I'll be placing an order
with you soon then. ;-)

Thanks for the reply!  :-D

Mike

Michael,
   the figures used by Eric are H&R, not Baccus so
there might be some gaps.

Baccus does not make a heavy ballsta at the moment,
but as a suggestion what I tell people to do is use 2
figures for a light and 3 for a heavy. that way you
can look at the base and see the difference.

Alot of people proxy the Roman Ballista and Roman
Generals for their artillery and leaders.  You might
want to add a figure or two from the carthaginian pack
to make it more suitable for that faction though.

I am not sure how any base worth of figures you would
need for Eric game though so I cant help there. But if
you were to cut all the strips in half each bag would
give you 80 bases worth of figures, but alot will
depend on how you base them, I'm thinking 2 ranks on a
20x20 base for a total of 8 figures, but it all
depends on the size of the ship as well to make sure
everything fits.

If you have any more specific questions about Baccus I
can help you, either ask here or email me at
admin@...

I'd prefer if you ask here that way we can share how
we are doing things.  I myself have been looking to do
something with this scale ship and am very happy that
Eric made these.

or visit my website at www.heritage-studios.com

Hopefully we can keep track of the progress and make a
document for what people use so we can add it to the
file section.

Steve







--- Michael DAuben <mdauben@...> wrote:

> --- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Hotz"
> <erichotz@...> wrote:
>
> I'm really looking forward to the release of your
> ships and rules,
> Eric.  Don't keep us waiting *too* long!  ;-)
>
> In the mean time, I thought I might get a head start
> by picking up
> some figures and painting them to use with the game.
>  Based on the
> recomendations on your website, I think I'm going
> with the Baccus
> figures. I imagine to start I will be going with the
> Roman and
> Carthagenian fleets.  Looking though the Baccus
> website, would these
> be the figures you were using?
>
> ROMANS:
> AIR 2 Auxiliary Infantry
> AIR 5 Bolt Throwers
>
> CARTHAGINIANS:
> ACA1 Citizen Infantry
>
> I don't seem to see any Carthaginian Ballistae or
> Bolt Throwers on
> their website.  Did you just use the Roman ones, or
> did I miss
> them?  Also, I don't see any heavy Ballistae for
> either faction.
> Does Baccus make a suitable mini?
>
> Finally, how many bases worth of figures would you
> recomend buying
> in erder to be able to do some fair sized games?
> The packs are
> relatively inexpensive, so I thought I would go
> ahead and order as
> much as I might need right off, rather than ordering
> them one pack
> at a time. :-)
>
> > However, that is with Heroics & Ross miniatures.
>  What I will
> > do, is to make an optional small tower for the
> Baccus
> > miniatures/Ballistae and have this as an optional
> PDF file.
>
> So, is that going to be included in the inital
> release, or at a
> later time?  I just want to be sure before I start
> order the larger
> Baccus figs.  ;-)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>

--- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Hotz" <erichotz@...> wrote:

I'm really looking forward to the release of your ships and rules,
Eric.  Don't keep us waiting *too* long!  ;-)

In the mean time, I thought I might get a head start by picking up
some figures and painting them to use with the game.  Based on the
recomendations on your website, I think I'm going with the Baccus
figures. I imagine to start I will be going with the Roman and
Carthagenian fleets.  Looking though the Baccus website, would these
be the figures you were using?

ROMANS:
AIR 2 Auxiliary Infantry
AIR 5 Bolt Throwers

CARTHAGINIANS:
ACA1 Citizen Infantry

I don't seem to see any Carthaginian Ballistae or Bolt Throwers on
their website.  Did you just use the Roman ones, or did I miss
them?  Also, I don't see any heavy Ballistae for either faction.
Does Baccus make a suitable mini?

Finally, how many bases worth of figures would you recomend buying
in erder to be able to do some fair sized games?  The packs are
relatively inexpensive, so I thought I would go ahead and order as
much as I might need right off, rather than ordering them one pack
at a time. :-)

> However, that is with Heroics & Ross miniatures.    What I will
> do, is to make an optional small tower for the Baccus
> miniatures/Ballistae and have this as an optional PDF file.

So, is that going to be included in the inital release, or at a
later time?  I just want to be sure before I start order the larger
Baccus figs.  ;-)

Thanks!

Mike

>Hi Eric,
>
>   Great looking models.  I'm very anxious to try putting a few of them
>together.
>
>   I was wondering though, if you (or anyone really) makes 6mm "stand-
>up" paper figures.  True, it's not nearly as nice as an actual lead
>mini, but I know my painting abilities and at 6mm, I may as well just
>dunk them in a primary color and have "Legion Blue", "Legion Green",
>and "Legion Pink".  Color print stand-ups, while sadly two-
>dimensional, would at least look fairly nice with the ships.  Plus, I
>don't have to wait for shipping from England.
>
>later
>Tom

I will ponder making 6mm paper miniatures... hmmm (in ponder mode).

The trick to painting 6mm figures, especially medievals and ancients
is to black base the miniatures and allow the black wash form the
shadows.  Then use bright colors to color the non-shadow areas.  This
is 50% faster than trying to white or grey base and treating the 5mm
figs as 15mm miniatures. For my Roman marines I just used five colors:

Black Wash
Red Tunic
Flesh Color
Light Brown for Spears
Silver for metal

My paint, with the exception of the black wash is fairly thick and
very old.  I used to work for an RPG publisher and they threw out
about $500 worth of old armoury paint.  I fished it out of the
garbage back in 1987! and have been using the paints ever since.
Amazingly, about 50% of it still remains, which shows you how often I
paint miniatures!  I won't win awards for my miniatures, buy in three
days I was able to paint up 1,850 5mm figs.

Still, I will ponder 6mm paper miniatures.  It may work... then
again, it may not, but I will look into it .


E. Hotz

Heh heh hee. Good move with the cast away paints/inks!!

Here is a place where very innovative and field expedient people
visit to share their methods of operation and ultracheapness:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/ultracheapminis/

Chris

--- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, Eric Hotz <erichotz@...> wrote:
>
> >Hi Eric,
> >
> >   Great looking models.  I'm very anxious to try putting a few of
them
> >together.
> >
> >   I was wondering though, if you (or anyone really) makes
6mm "stand-
> >up" paper figures.  True, it's not nearly as nice as an actual lead
> >mini, but I know my painting abilities and at 6mm, I may as well
just
> >dunk them in a primary color and have "Legion Blue", "Legion
Green",
> >and "Legion Pink".  Color print stand-ups, while sadly two-
> >dimensional, would at least look fairly nice with the ships.
Plus, I
> >don't have to wait for shipping from England.
> >
> >later
> >Tom
>
> I will ponder making 6mm paper miniatures... hmmm (in ponder mode).
>
> The trick to painting 6mm figures, especially medievals and
ancients
> is to black base the miniatures and allow the black wash form the
> shadows.  Then use bright colors to color the non-shadow areas.
This
> is 50% faster than trying to white or grey base and treating the
5mm
> figs as 15mm miniatures. For my Roman marines I just used five
colors:
>
> Black Wash
> Red Tunic
> Flesh Color
> Light Brown for Spears
> Silver for metal
>
> My paint, with the exception of the black wash is fairly thick and
> very old.  I used to work for an RPG publisher and they threw out
> about $500 worth of old armoury paint.  I fished it out of the
> garbage back in 1987! and have been using the paints ever since.
> Amazingly, about 50% of it still remains, which shows you how often
I
> paint miniatures!  I won't win awards for my miniatures, buy in
three
> days I was able to paint up 1,850 5mm figs.
>
> Still, I will ponder 6mm paper miniatures.  It may work... then
> again, it may not, but I will look into it .
>
>
> E. Hotz
>

>Hi Eric,
>
>   Great looking models.  I'm very anxious to try putting a few of them
>together.
>
>   I was wondering though, if you (or anyone really) makes 6mm "stand-
>up" paper figures.  True, it's not nearly as nice as an actual lead
>mini, but I know my painting abilities and at 6mm, I may as well just
>dunk them in a primary color and have "Legion Blue", "Legion Green",
>and "Legion Pink".  Color print stand-ups, while sadly two-
>dimensional, would at least look fairly nice with the ships.  Plus, I
>don't have to wait for shipping from England.
>
>later
>Tom

I will ponder making 6mm paper miniatures... hmmm (in ponder mode).

The trick to painting 6mm figures, especially medievals and ancients
is to black base the miniatures and allow the black wash form the
shadows.  Then use bright colors to color the non-shadow areas.  This
is 50% faster than trying to white or grey base and treating the 5mm
figs as 15mm miniatures. For my Roman marines I just used five colors:

Black Wash
Red Tunic
Flesh Color
Light Brown for Spears
Silver for metal

My paint, with the exception of the black wash is fairly thick and
very old.  I used to work for an RPG publisher and they threw out
about $500 worth of old armoury paint.  I fished it out of the
garbage back in 1987! and have been using the paints ever since.
Amazingly, about 50% of it still remains, which shows you how often I
paint miniatures!  I won't win awards for my miniatures, buy in three
days I was able to paint up 1,850 5mm figs.

Still, I will ponder 6mm paper miniatures.  It may work... then
again, it may not, but I will look into it .


E. Hotz

Tom,
   here is a link to some paper soldiers:

http://juniorgeneral.org/paper.html#ancients

why not try printing them "scaled" to fit the ships.
He has quite a bit on the site, so you might be able
to find something that suites your needs.

Also if you dont want to wait for figures to be
shipped from England, and are interested in Baccus, I
sell them here in NA, I am based out of PA.

www.heritage-studios.com

On a side note if you do use the paper flats, post
some pictures.  I'd be interested to see how well them
scale

Steve




--- BlueGargantua <bluegargantua@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Eric,
>
>   Great looking models.  I'm very anxious to try
> putting a few of them
> together.
>
>   I was wondering though, if you (or anyone really)
> makes 6mm "stand-
> up" paper figures.  True, it's not nearly as nice as
> an actual lead
> mini, but I know my painting abilities and at 6mm, I
> may as well just
> dunk them in a primary color and have "Legion Blue",
> "Legion Green",
> and "Legion Pink".  Color print stand-ups, while
> sadly two-
> dimensional, would at least look fairly nice with
> the ships.  Plus, I
> don't have to wait for shipping from England.
>
> later
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Eric,

   Great looking models.  I'm very anxious to try putting a few of them
together.

   I was wondering though, if you (or anyone really) makes 6mm "stand-
up" paper figures.  True, it's not nearly as nice as an actual lead
mini, but I know my painting abilities and at 6mm, I may as well just
dunk them in a primary color and have "Legion Blue", "Legion Green",
and "Legion Pink".  Color print stand-ups, while sadly two-
dimensional, would at least look fairly nice with the ships.  Plus, I
don't have to wait for shipping from England.

later
Tom

I would have remained an archaeologist if we had stuff like that on

the westcoast of North America!

Hi;

  Where are you? I'm in Los Angeles.

Chuck

Here is another reference links for you Eric. Chris:

http://home.tiscali.nl/meester7/engheavier.html
The biggest galley ever built

In the Hellenistic era (from 300 BC) some really gigantic warships
were built. A normal Roman 'five' had 300 rowers and 120 soldiers on
board, but the biggest ship of all, the 'forty' built by king Ptolemy
IV (221-204 BC), had no less than 4000 rowers and room for 2850
soldiers and 400 sailors! The length was 130 m, the width 18 m.
Perhaps it was inspired by Noah's Ark (and the lighthouse of Pharos
on the Tower of Babel?); about this time a Greek translation of the
Bible was made in Alexandria. It was probably a kind of catamaran
with two hulls, like many modern ferries.

Prof. Morrison thinks that half of the rowers pulled the oars and the
other half pushed against the oars. If the rowers sat (or stood) in
three stories, with 6 or 7 men pulling and 6 or 7 men pushing each
oar, it is just possible. In this way there would be 100 rows fore
and aft and in total 12 or 14 rows across; that would fit within the
dimensions. This is less unlikely than the reconstruction by L.
Casson, who assumes that the rowers sat in two separate hulls with
one enormous deck in between.

Here are some reference links for you Eric. Chris:

http://navis.terraromana.org/Forum.php5
Click on the pics at the bottom, and there are some other links down
there.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/temetfutue/glossary/glossaryR.htm
Artillery and missile ranges.

http://www.livius.org/home.html
More info. and links here.

http://www.atm.ox.ac.uk/rowing/trireme/
The Olympias Trireme, a life-size reconstruction.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~loxias/trireme.htm

http://www.thalassa.gr/2002/to/en/i06.asp

http://www.thalassa.gr/2002/to/en/index.html

http://groups.msn.com/GreekSeamensClub/navalgallery.msnw

http://www.rodlangton.com/ancient/300scale.htm

http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/page.php?p=8835

http://tinyurl.com/ejl68
Google search page for Hellenistic Warships.

--- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Hotz" <erichotz@...> wrote:
>
> --- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, <naismith@> wrote:
>
>
> > If your projects turns out as well, as we hope, you are welcome to
> > produce additional sets for other periods... ACW comes to mind...
while
> > I am not aware of the actual importance of naval warfare in this
war, I
> > really like the look of the Ironclads used in this period.
>
> The first ship models I ever built were Ironclads... fun to game,
and
> because few of these ships actually had their hulls showing, not
that
> difficult to make in paper/card.
>
>
> > Greek sea battles are of course very likely to interest people
who are
> > into "ancients".
>
> I need good reference for these.  All my recent efforts have gone
into
> Roman naval research.. my girlfriend is already complaining about
all
> the books I bought. Now if I told her how much I spent, she wouldn't
> be my girlfriend for much longer ;-)
>
>
>
> > I remember (and have just found it again in my bookshelf) reading
Peter
> > Connolly's "Hannibal and the Enemies of Rome", which I really
liked,
> > when I was a kid.
>
> I have that book laying about somewhere too, along with several
other
> books dealing with Hannibal (from my father's library).
>
> >Are you planning on doing the major harbour of
> > Carthage? There is an impressive reconstruction painting
illustrating
> > the size of the military harbour... could be done as a nice
modular set.
>
> Send me pictures and I wilmake it so.  Love to have as many photos
of
> Carthage or any Roman period port as possible.  You can never have
too
> many reference sources!
>
> I owuld have remained an archaeologist if we had stuff like that on
> the westcoast of North America!
>

You can get all 3 of Connolly's books rolled into one with a lot more
added info. in his book 'Greece and Rome at War', and John
Wary's 'Warfare in the Classical World' (hardcover with colored pics
and a continuous event timeline at the bottom of each page), and both
have some excellent drawings/prints of Greek and Roman warships.

There isn't that much difference between them all really from a
gaming standpoint. The earlier Mycenean/Trojan
War/Assyrian/Phoenecian ships are different though: biremes,
penteconters and other uniremes or monoremes.

There are some webites with pics of greek and Roman etc. ships,
including one with a replica full size working Atnenian Trireme. I
can get the links together and post them here. You probably can get
downloads of at these sites or just copy ships' statistical info. and
the pics so you may not have to buy any books for some quick but
decent research.

Interesting about the Archaeology. My degree was in Geology, never
finished my Master's Degree, and basically never used it
professionally even though I worked in the environmental field for
some time.

Take care, Chris


--- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, "cyberwolf1971de" <naismith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Hotz" <erichotz@> wrote:
> >
> > The first ship models I ever built were Ironclads... fun to game,
> and
> > because few of these ships actually had their hulls showing, not
> that
> > difficult to make in paper/card.
> >
>
>
> Yes, the angular shape lends itself very well to paper modelling.
>
>
>
>
> > On Greek Ships:
> >
> > I need good reference for these.  All my recent efforts have gone
> into
> > Roman naval research.. my girlfriend is already complaining about
> all
> > the books I bought. Now if I told her how much I spent, she
> wouldn't
> > be my girlfriend for much longer ;-)
> >
> >
>
> Offhand I don't know a good resource - but I will keep my eyes
open.
> For the time being you are in all likelihood busy getting the Roman
> Era sets out of the door.
>
>
> >
> > > I remember (and have just found it again in my bookshelf)
> reading Peter
> > > Connolly's "Hannibal and the Enemies of Rome", which I really
> liked,
> > > when I was a kid.
> >
> > I have that book laying about somewhere too, along with several
> other
> > books dealing with Hannibal (from my father's library).
> >
> > >Are you planning on doing the major harbour of
> > > Carthage? There is an impressive reconstruction painting
> illustrating
> > > the size of the military harbour... could be done as a nice
> modular set.
> >
> > Send me pictures and I wilmake it so.  Love to have as many
photos
> of
> > Carthage or any Roman period port as possible.  You can never
have
> too
> > many reference sources!
> >
>
> I will scan it later and send it to you, Eric.
>
>
>
>
> > I owuld have remained an archaeologist if we had stuff like that
on
> > the westcoast of North America!
> >
>
>
> One of the good points of living here in Europe... still plenty of
> things left to be discovered.
>

I owuld have remained an archaeologist if we had stuff like that on
the westcoast of North America!

Hi;

  Where are you? I'm in Los Angeles.

Chuck

--- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Hotz" <erichotz@...> wrote:
>
> The first ship models I ever built were Ironclads... fun to game,
and
> because few of these ships actually had their hulls showing, not
that
> difficult to make in paper/card.
>


Yes, the angular shape lends itself very well to paper modelling.




> On Greek Ships:
>
> I need good reference for these.  All my recent efforts have gone
into
> Roman naval research.. my girlfriend is already complaining about
all
> the books I bought. Now if I told her how much I spent, she
wouldn't
> be my girlfriend for much longer ;-)
>
>

Offhand I don't know a good resource - but I will keep my eyes open.
For the time being you are in all likelihood busy getting the Roman
Era sets out of the door.


>
> > I remember (and have just found it again in my bookshelf)
reading Peter
> > Connolly's "Hannibal and the Enemies of Rome", which I really
liked,
> > when I was a kid.
>
> I have that book laying about somewhere too, along with several
other
> books dealing with Hannibal (from my father's library).
>
> >Are you planning on doing the major harbour of
> > Carthage? There is an impressive reconstruction painting
illustrating
> > the size of the military harbour... could be done as a nice
modular set.
>
> Send me pictures and I wilmake it so.  Love to have as many photos
of
> Carthage or any Roman period port as possible.  You can never have
too
> many reference sources!
>

I will scan it later and send it to you, Eric.




> I owuld have remained an archaeologist if we had stuff like that on
> the westcoast of North America!
>


One of the good points of living here in Europe... still plenty of
things left to be discovered.

--- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, <naismith@...> wrote:


> If your projects turns out as well, as we hope, you are welcome to
> produce additional sets for other periods... ACW comes to mind... while
> I am not aware of the actual importance of naval warfare in this war, I
> really like the look of the Ironclads used in this period.

The first ship models I ever built were Ironclads... fun to game, and
because few of these ships actually had their hulls showing, not that
difficult to make in paper/card.


> Greek sea battles are of course very likely to interest people who are
> into "ancients".

I need good reference for these.  All my recent efforts have gone into
Roman naval research.. my girlfriend is already complaining about all
the books I bought. Now if I told her how much I spent, she wouldn't
be my girlfriend for much longer ;-)



> I remember (and have just found it again in my bookshelf) reading Peter
> Connolly's "Hannibal and the Enemies of Rome", which I really liked,
> when I was a kid.

I have that book laying about somewhere too, along with several other
books dealing with Hannibal (from my father's library).

>Are you planning on doing the major harbour of
> Carthage? There is an impressive reconstruction painting illustrating
> the size of the military harbour... could be done as a nice modular set.

Send me pictures and I wilmake it so.  Love to have as many photos of
Carthage or any Roman period port as possible.  You can never have too
many reference sources!

I owuld have remained an archaeologist if we had stuff like that on
the westcoast of North America!

Do each single thing as if you know nothing else.

- The Tao of Shinsei -
Eric wrote:
<Why do books and Hollywood always leave
<the Roman navy stuff out of their movies and stories?


The Golden Rules of Hollywood: Never work with children, animals and
never, ever on water!

With today's CGI technology it should be feasible to make such a
movie... The sight of scores upon scores of ships going into battle
would make for some great shots.






<So many time periods, so many ships, so little time!


If your projects turns out as well, as we hope, you are welcome to
produce additional sets for other periods... ACW comes to mind... while
I am not aware of the actual importance of naval warfare in this war, I
really like the look of the Ironclads used in this period.

Greek sea battles are of course very likely to interest people who are
into "ancients".


I remember (and have just found it again in my bookshelf) reading Peter
Connolly's "Hannibal and the Enemies of Rome", which I really liked,
when I was a kid. Are you planning on doing the major harbour of
Carthage? There is an impressive reconstruction painting illustrating
the size of the military harbour... could be done as a nice modular set.

Everything that I have read, and there is not all that much info.
anyway, about the Veneti or Veniti Gallic ships was that the large
ones were larger, at least higher than the Roman ships, with high
prows, leather sails, and heavily built to withstand jaunts into the
Atlantic Ocean. They also had smaller ships. I think they would look
very similar to exactly what you have created. It took awhile for the
Romans to determine how to beat them.

That's interesting about the earlier Saxon ships' construction that
you mention, wood being sewn together etc.

Those other Irish/Gaelic 'curragh' (sp?) type hide-hulled ships were
rather small, but I guess fairly seaworthy from what has been written
of them, but I wouldn't float around in one without good reason. ;-)

Hollywood is sometimes OK and many times not OK. Overall I give a 3
out of 5 on the Phrrrt!! scale per Ben Franklin, this takes some
explanation and deciphering but either way, if 1 or 5 is deemed best,
Hollywood overall seems about midway or so.

I think the Classical Hack people did some games at some conventions
that included naval actions in Alexandria.

Oh, what I was saying was that you already have the right ships for
the Cilician and Illyrian and Hellenistic Pirates and the Mithradatic
Wars. Maybe I didn't say that clearly before.

Yeah, time flys at times and drags at others.

Chris

--- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, Eric Hotz <erichotz@...> wrote:
>
> >Hi Eric,
> >
> >You have made a Veneti ship, and I bet you can use the Saxon ships
in
> >the set also for Gallic ships no doubt??
>
> The Saxon ships are designed after Saxon ships, not Viking, so I
> think they are probably late Gaelic ships.  Not sure what the
Gaelic
> ships looked really looked like, although there was an ancient
> Britain ship unearthed a few years ago, that dates back about 1,000
> years earlier than the Roman period -- this was a long, wide, large
> low riding coastal vessel that was constructed without nails or
> wooden pegs, but actually sewn together using sinew!
>
>
> >I love the Punic and
> >Mithradatic Wars but Caesar's battles with the Veneti and other
> >coastal Guals in that area seems rather interesting to say the
least.
>
> Caesar's battles were far more numerous than what I originally
> thought before starting the Roman Seas project.  What the series
> "Rome" lacked were scenes of the Roman and Egyptian fleets hacking
it
> out at Alexandria Harbor.  Why do books and Hollywood always leave
> the Roman navy stuff out of their movies and stories?
>
>
> >All those smaller Greek, Carthaginian and Roman ships could be used
> >for Cilician, Illyrian and Hellenistic pirates, even Macedon's
fleet
> >during the 2nd Punic War and later.
>
> So many time periods, so many ships, so little time!
>
>
> E. Hotz
>

>Hi Eric,
>
>You have made a Veneti ship, and I bet you can use the Saxon ships in
>the set also for Gallic ships no doubt??

The Saxon ships are designed after Saxon ships, not Viking, so I
think they are probably late Gaelic ships.  Not sure what the Gaelic
ships looked really looked like, although there was an ancient
Britain ship unearthed a few years ago, that dates back about 1,000
years earlier than the Roman period -- this was a long, wide, large
low riding coastal vessel that was constructed without nails or
wooden pegs, but actually sewn together using sinew!


>I love the Punic and
>Mithradatic Wars but Caesar's battles with the Veneti and other
>coastal Guals in that area seems rather interesting to say the least.

Caesar's battles were far more numerous than what I originally
thought before starting the Roman Seas project.  What the series
"Rome" lacked were scenes of the Roman and Egyptian fleets hacking it
out at Alexandria Harbor.  Why do books and Hollywood always leave
the Roman navy stuff out of their movies and stories?


>All those smaller Greek, Carthaginian and Roman ships could be used
>for Cilician, Illyrian and Hellenistic pirates, even Macedon's fleet
>during the 2nd Punic War and later.

So many time periods, so many ships, so little time!


E. Hotz

Hi Eric,

I figured you were wise to that. I would stick with the 1/300th for
ancients.

You have made a Veneti ship, and I bet you can use the Saxon ships in
the set also for Gallic ships no doubt?? I love the Punic and
Mithradatic Wars but Caesar's battles with the Veneti and other
coastal Guals in that area seems rather interesting to say the least.

All those smaller Greek, Carthaginian and Roman ships could be used
for Cilician, Illyrian and Hellenistic pirates, even Macedon's fleet
during the 2nd Punic War and later.

Nice and sharp models, good idea. They looks soooo nest preciousssss.
Yessss. Ha ha ha!!! Gollum made those movies, what a trip.

I already posted links to your photos and site at the Legion Arena PC
game site.

Take care, Chris


--- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, Eric Hotz <erichotz@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Chris,
>
> I play ACW in 6mm and use 1/600th scale transports and gunboats.
> Works and looks fine.
>
> The cost of 1/300th scale figs for Roman Seas is not a lot.
Looking
> at Baccus 6mm, you get 96 foot figs of infantry per pack at  4.60
> pounds per pack (about $9.20 CND or $8.50 USD -- guessing here).  I
> think you will be able to get enough for a small game for under
$50.
> Most of the fun games I have played are small games with around 5
or
> so ships aside.  Good, fast fun!
>
> >Hi Eric,
> >
> >Some people will use say 1/600th (2-3mm scale) scale ships
> >simultaneously with 6mm or 10mm or even 15mm figures on land, and
some
> >fellow told me this works well. I think Bay Yards in California
makes
> >an excellent line of resin ACW ships of all types in 1/600th if you
> >don't know about them already.
> >
> >To outfit a fleet of your 1/300 scale with figs. wouldn't cost that
> >much, and if a person wanted to use 10mm or 15mm figs.
simultaneously
> >on land it would all still look good on a table. You've probably
seen
> >this done before.
> >
> >Certainly does float one's boat!!
> >
> >Chris
>

Hello Chris,

I play ACW in 6mm and use 1/600th scale transports and gunboats.
Works and looks fine.

The cost of 1/300th scale figs for Roman Seas is not a lot.  Looking
at Baccus 6mm, you get 96 foot figs of infantry per pack at  4.60
pounds per pack (about $9.20 CND or $8.50 USD -- guessing here).  I
think you will be able to get enough for a small game for under $50.
Most of the fun games I have played are small games with around 5 or
so ships aside.  Good, fast fun!

>Hi Eric,
>
>Some people will use say 1/600th (2-3mm scale) scale ships
>simultaneously with 6mm or 10mm or even 15mm figures on land, and some
>fellow told me this works well. I think Bay Yards in California makes
>an excellent line of resin ACW ships of all types in 1/600th if you
>don't know about them already.
>
>To outfit a fleet of your 1/300 scale with figs. wouldn't cost that
>much, and if a person wanted to use 10mm or 15mm figs. simultaneously
>on land it would all still look good on a table. You've probably seen
>this done before.
>
>Certainly does float one's boat!!
>
>Chris

Hi Eric,

Some people will use say 1/600th (2-3mm scale) scale ships
simultaneously with 6mm or 10mm or even 15mm figures on land, and some
fellow told me this works well. I think Bay Yards in California makes
an excellent line of resin ACW ships of all types in 1/600th if you
don't know about them already.

To outfit a fleet of your 1/300 scale with figs. wouldn't cost that
much, and if a person wanted to use 10mm or 15mm figs. simultaneously
on land it would all still look good on a table. You've probably seen
this done before.

Certainly does float one's boat!!

Chris

Hello Chuck,

>Hi Eric;
>   Fantastic idea!! Ships look great.
>   You sure aren't going to make money on this. Realize this
>up-front. You must do it as a "labor of love". If the rules are good
>you will sell them to people with other ships than yours. Once the
>rules are working you can tweek them for other periods than Roman.
>   I- Greeks, Persians, Phonecians, etc.
>   II- Lepanto 1571
>   III- Chinese, Japanese, Korean
>   IV early Byzantine and friends
>   V Vikings and friends
>   By the way- have you seen thePirates of the Spanish Main
>collectable card game? Could you do sailing ships?

Originally we started this whole project by making Elizabethan ships,
and these started to work very nicely, although information on the
ships is surprisingly sparse, and the number of ship parts was higher
than that of Roman war galleys.


>   Tried to send you an e-mail last night but the e-mail address on
>your site wouldn't work. Could you do those mats in 1", 2", 3", and
>4"?

Been getting a lot of requests for other sizes.  The next size we are
working on is 3" hexes, which is needed for many games and no one
seems to make them.  No idea why that is.


>Go man GO!!
>
>Chuck
>
>PS- Just had a thought. American Civil War Ironclads.

ACW was a thought of ours too.  I used to scratch build these in
1/200th scale many years ago.


E. Hotz

As you can see, the problem with scaling has little to do with the
Roman Seas models themselves.  Because Roman Seas models are rendered
in vector art, as apposed to bitmap art, the PDF file art can be blown
up to any scale without losing detail.  You just have to find a
company that can print out larger than 11" x 17".  These companies do
exist, and they are not that expensive.

I am going to contact my brother because he works out of a high tech
office that has plotters and high end laser printers.  Awhile ago he
made me some 54mm scale Whitewash City printout in full color inkjet
(24" x 24" printouts).  My brother now works for a different company,
so he may not have access to this size of of a printer, but i will see.

Using a 24" x 24" inkjet printout plotter means I would probably be
able to printout a Quinqereme at 15mm scale, or a Liburnian in 28mm
scale without a problem.

You can probably do this as well.  Just take the future 10mm scale PDF
file to a company that can give you large format printouts (24" x 24")
and then you too can have ships in 28mm scale.  Not sure what the
physical size would be, but the model would certainly turn heads at
any convention!


E. Hotz

After getting back from a dinner engagement (had relatives from
Switzerland show up) at 2am, I was looking over the 15mm scale
Liburnian model sitting on my dinning room table and all of a sudden
realized that it was over scale. At least, it looked too large for the
15mm miniatures I had on hand which are all true 15mm.  I broke out my
ruler and calculator and made some quick measurements and then I
remembered...

When I made the first Roman Seas model, I found that a 1/300th scale
ship model was really too small for the placement of miniatures,
unless the miniatures were mounted one figure to a base, and providing
you used small bases.  I also remembered that Baccus miniatures are
slightly larger than Heroics & Ros.  So I upped the scale of Roman
Seas ship models in order to make Baccus miniatures fit and to allow
the placement of miniatures in general.  As a result, using 5mm or
Baccus miniatures (6.5mm) looks great with Roman Seas models.  In
order to figure out the actual scale, you have to start your
calculations at 6.5mm scale, not 5mm scale.

So after playing around with a calculator I found that my 15mm
Liburnian model is really 20mm scale, which is as large as you can
make this model because that is all that will fit onto an 11" x 17"
piece of paper (actually you can go as high as 22mm scale).

What this really means is that you can make any Roman Seas ship from a
Trireme on down, in any scale up to 15mm without any real problems.

For 25mm, the Roman Liburnian won't fit onto the page, but... the
Hemoila will re-scale to 25mm because it is a smaller ship and will
fits onto a 11" x 17" page in 25mm scale, as will the Roman
Patrol/Scout Ship and the Small Saxon Raider.  So there would be an
interesting game between the Saxons and the Romans in the 4th Century
Roman Empire, or the Saxon ship could be used as a pirate ship.  Now
if I can just remember where I put my 15mm Romans and my 25mm
Romans... this will make for a great display game!

To upscale, you would start with a 10mm scale printout, take it to
Staples/Office Depot, and go and get the model blown up on their color
laser printer onto 11" x 17" paper.  I always use their self help
printer, because then I can get exactly what I want.  Then spray mount
the laser printout onto poster board (or any similar thickness card,
ands tart building.  Took me around 40 minutes to make, and base one
Liburnian.

One more work on 10mm scale ship models: I will be adding more
detailings onto these PDF models.  There were originally designed for
6mm, and at 10mm, I have a lot more room to add detailings.  This
shouldn't take too long to do before I can make these models available
for sale on the Roman Seas website.


E. Hotz

Hello,

My name is Chris, and I saw your ship and site listed at the 10mm Yahoo
group or Classical Hack's site or somewhere and was very amazed and
happy to find your site and see your work. Great idea there!!

I have gamed in the past  and the Punic and Mithradatic Wars are my
favorites i guess, and as you know, there is plenty of naval action in
both.

Absolutely brilliant, sharp, great, neat, etc. to infinity models and
idea you have here.

Eventually I would like to purchase some.

Best of the best to you all, Chris

Well, I'm interested in the period, but hadn't considered getting into
gaming it, so you've added one new player, at the very least.

The pdf format seems to strike my happy range too -- enough variety
for the price, and low enough to get me hooked into a new game (and
the buy-in price is affordable enough to shop these to others in my
local group).

The Saxon ships are inspiring me too, I see them and I think, "those
could easily be modified into Viking ships." I am definitely going to
buy all these sets of yours.

Alex h

--- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Hotz" <erichotz@...> wrote:

>   I wasn't sure on the pricing.  The danger is that the people who
> really want it will buy it, which will probably represent only a
> handful of people, and that will be that.  Everyone who is interested
> in Roman Naval will then have a copy.  Not sure if charging more will
> change that.  How many people are interested in Ancient Roman Naval?
>
>   I am hoping that with Roman Seas, more people will create new game
> rules, play more games, and then that will bring more people into
> ancient naval gaming.  I always found ancient naval gaming to be a fun
> period to game and also a very interesting era since more and more
> information is coming to light.

--- In roman_seas@yahoogroups.com, "James" <vojvoda13@...> wrote:

> Eric,
>   What a great idea and product. I cant wait to see it. I think you
> might be selling this too cheap however. If it is something someone
> can run every ship they will ever need I am not sure how many copies
> will be sold once some take the idea and run with it.

   I wasn't sure on the pricing.  The danger is that the people who
really want it will buy it, which will probably represent only a
handful of people, and that will be that.  Everyone who is interested
in Roman Naval will then have a copy.  Not sure if charging more will
change that.  How many people are interested in Ancient Roman Naval?

   I am hoping that with Roman Seas, more people will create new game
rules, play more games, and then that will bring more people into
ancient naval gaming.  I always found ancient naval gaming to be a fun
period to game and also a very interesting era since more and more
information is coming to light.


>I do like the
> idea of doing this in all three scales. I look forward to seeing >the
> finished product and will be doing something with it.

   The best I can do is present the PDF files in 10mm scale.  To attain
15mm scale, you need to take the 10mm scale print out to
Staples/Office Depot (etc) and get something like 144% printouts onto
11 x 17in 20lb bond paper. I then just spray mounted the laser
printout onto poster board.  The cost for doing this is very cheap.
To make my 15mm scale Bireme (Liburnian), the cost was about $3 in
materials and that includes the laser printouts and I only used half
of the poster board. Now if I can just find where I store my 15mm
Roman Marines... I bought a bunch just so I could do this project and
now I cannot remember where they were stored.  I even paid to have
them painted.


>I was also
> looking at your bases and was wondering if that is mat board or foam
> core board?

   Neither. I had several people look over my bases when I put on my
games at Trumpeter Salute 2006 and ask the same question: what did you
use to base your ship models?  I thought everyone used this material,
but it turns out, most people don't know about it.  It is
Peterbourough Cold Press Illustration Board No.5, or, in short, very
heavy, thick cardboard.  The cost for Illustration board is around $10
a sheet, with a sheet measuring around 20 x 30 in (I am guessing on
the size but this is close).  I made 96 Roman ships so far, and two
sheets was more than enough to base all these and I can still base at
least 15 more ship models.  I find Cold Press (rough surface) works
best, because when painted, it still retains a texture that looks a
bit like rippled water -- I cut the bases to size, and then spray
painted the bases.  I measured the ships and marked the bases where
the ships glue tabs would go and then scraped away the painted surface
down to the paper surface and glued the model in place.  You can then
cover up your mistakes with white paint to simulate waves, splashes, etc.


> Also one question on the rules you used. Are you planning to publish
> those as well?

   Yes, in PDF file format.  They are not really a simple set of rules,
but I thinking about working on a simplified version for faster play.
  My present rules are table heavy, but I like that.  On a scale of 1
to 5 (1=Low/5=High), they are a 3.5 for complexity.  Some people found
the rules too simple, while others found them too complex.  My
original play testers, however, seemed to think it was right on the
money, which proves, especially with ancient naval combat, you cannot
please everyone.


> How do you indicate speed on the bases. I played with the idea of
> wave makers behind the ship to indicate the current speed. I would
> like to see what if anything you use to so designate the ships speed.

   For our next game we are going to use speed markers.  This is just a
blue marker with your ship's speed indicated (how many hexes your ship
moved that turn).  This way you can track acceleration and
deceleration, but from what I read about war galleys from this period
they could speed up and decelerate quite quickly.  This is a simple
solution, not really a clever one.


> Mounting of the figures for the ships, what basing are you using
> (size and thickness)?

   I use 9mm x 9mm bases for all infantry and the Light Ballistae, and
9mm x 18mm for the medium Ballistae.  For heavy Ballistae I think I
used 18mm x 18mm, but since these weapons were not used on board
ships, I rarely get a chance to use them (I will have to measure the
stands to see what I ended up with).  Infantry is mounted 3 figs per
base.  However, that is with Heroics & Ross miniatures.  If you are
using Baccus, I used 2 figs per base (because the figures are slightly
larger).  Baccus light Ballistae causes a few problems because with my
rules, the light Ballistae should be able to fit into a small ship
tower, but the Baccus Ballistae is longer than 9mm if you include the
two man crew.  What I will do, is to make an optional small tower for
the Baccus miniatures/Ballistae and have this as an optional PDF file.
  Baccus miniatures look very nice on these ship models so I am willing
to make the models accommodate them.

   The thickness of the bases do not really matter.  My bases ended up
being on the thick side, which wasn't quite what I was looking for,
but since you are usually standing over the game, you don't tend to
notice.  I would have preferred thinner bases.

   The reason for the 9mm x 9mm base size boils down to the Roman
Patrol/Scout ship and the Hemoila ship.  These are very narrow ships
and even though I did widen them slightly, but to retain their
historical lines, I could only go so far and I was only able to widen
them on the inside deck to around 10mm.  To ensure that the miniatures
actually fit, I went slightly smaller with the base size, and that is
why the bases I use are 9mm x 9mm.  With x3 H&R and x2 Baccus figures
per base, they work and look very good.


E. Hotz

Eric,
   What a great idea and product. I cant wait to see it. I think you
might be selling this too cheap however. If it is something someone
can run every ship they will ever need I am not sure how many copies
will be sold once some take the idea and run with it.  I do like the
idea of doing this in all three scales. I look forward to seeing the
finished product and will be doing something with it. I was also
looking at your bases and was wondering if that is mat board or foam
core board?

Also one question on the rules you used. Are you planning to publish
those as well?

How do you indicate speed on the bases. I played with the idea of
wave makers behind the ship to indicate the current speed. I would
like to see what if anything you use to so designate the ships speed.

Mounting of the figures for the ships, what basing are you using
(size and thickness)?
VR
James Mattes