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| Fw: [world-create] Re: Help needed for creating a planet without oc |
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Hello and thanks to all who replied to my concept of "P10E". I wrote a partial reply a week ago (since I didn't have time to respond to all), but for unknown reasons was apparently unable to send it successfully (I was trying to send it to the abrigon group addresses from which I had received them; since that didn't work, I'm trying now to send them via forwarding to individuals and to the planetpii group from which Mike Adams' original inquiry originally reached me. I can only hope this works and I hope to respond to the rest of your interesting postings as soon as I get a chance, may be a few days.
Roger Skutt
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Roger Skutt <progrev@...>
To: Abrigon Gusiq <abrigon@...>; abrigon-world@yahoogroups.com; Abrigon World Google <abrigon-world@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, January 8, 2011 12:21:20 AM
Subject: Re: [world-create] Re: Help needed for creating a planet without oceans
From: Abrigon Gusiq <abrigon@...> To: abrigon-world@yahoogroups.com; Abrigon World Google <abrigon-world@googlegroups.com> Sent: Fri, January 7, 2011 3:49:58 PM Subject: Re: [world-create] Re: Help needed for creating a planet without oceans
Thanks to all who replied to my post about my proposed planet P10E.
The first great purpose of such a planet is to create LAND, abundant land for all, because I believe that potentially everyone wants large homesites with large yards, along with plenty of rural areas and wilderness, for a variety of lifestyles--notably, such as the great American Old West and the nomadic lifestyles, where all the wide-open spaces mean freedom, and where wilderness can give you a great psychological joy--doesn't everyone love the desert, the mountains, the forests, the icefields of Antarctica, and/or the trackless oceans? Assuming the human population reaches 10-20 billion or maybe even 100 billion before we curb it, I envision P10E as the world that can best accommodate these desires for all, with its total surface area of 20
billion square miles. I know there are other possibilities such as the O'Neill space colonies, but I like to see the wide open starry skies when I look up at night.
I'm also a (frustrated!) artist--a wanna-be land-developer, who has tons of ideas for great landscapes, still imaginary, but that I would like to build; also a wanna-be architect full of ideas for beautiful imaginary cities I dream of designing. It will take a lot of land to accommodate all such dreams for all such artists. I'm also envisioning all kinds of political/economic/philosophical/ideological utopias that will want room to develop their ideals.
But there is another great reason too, which is as a gathering-place for aliens from all over the Galaxy and beyond, which of course may not exist, but which MIGHT exist, and if they do, we'll want P10E as a place where all can gather to mingle in every proportion--that is, besides the more common spots where just two or three or a few alien species can interact.
And another reason is that, if there are many other worlds in this galaxy and beyond (such as, say, on one world per million stars, which would be 100,000 to a million places in the Milky Way alone), where life is evolving anywhere from very primitive to very advanced levels, it is likely that some of those worlds are facing catastrophes, anywhere from great comet-collisions to supernovaing of their suns; and we will have the moral obligation to rescue as many of the inhabitants (whether pre-intelligent or superhuman, plant or animal) of such worlds as we can--and then we'll need a place put them, large enough to allow them to continue their evolution.

I'm pretty sure, but not absolutely certain, that my calculation that P10E would have 1/10 Earth's surface gravity is correct, based on the general rule that s.g. is proportional to radius times density (e.g., the Sun, with ~110 times Earth's radius and 1/4 Earth's density, has about 28 times Earth's s.g.). Does anyone here know for sure how to calculate this? But anyhow, you should know that the amont of air a world can hold depends NOT on (just) its s.g. but on its total mass, or perhaps its mass divided by its radius, or something like that, so that, at any rate, I do know for sure that P10E could hold an enormous atmosphere.
I do worry about bone loss and other problems that might be caused by the low gravity, but I believe that they might be solved by spending your nights sleeping in whirling rooms, proper diet and exercise, medicine or bionics or wearing massive suits or something, I think there may be a lot of unexplored possibilities, but also I admit I don't know all that science has yet learned about the effects of low gravity, if you'd care to enlighten me about that.
I propose to put P10E in Neptune's orbit, at one of the stable points, maybe 60 degrees ahead of or behind Neptune. I don't know about how much that might destabilize the Solar System, although I think that the effect on everything except Pluto would be minor but could be wrong. But it is most important to bear in mind that we will have ENORMOUS energy available. I am just envisioning a billion square miles of solar panels placed at a distance of say 5-10 million miles from the Sun. That would, I'm sure, provide enough energy to move any Pluto-sized objects around as may be necessary to prevent a catastrophe, given enough time--although I admit, I haven't done the math. Can you? It would certainly provide enough energy for all the
artificial lighting needed to make P10E's surface pleasantly inhabitable. However, I must admit too that I think most of P10E's surface, in order to be so pleasant, will have to be under glass, acetate, or lucite or something clear domes and/or clear tarps. The main reason is that even if it does have a massive atmosphere, its air pressure would be too low for comfort or even survival due to the low gravity, so you'd need domes/tarps to hold the air in, to raise its pressure.
But you should know also, that all the matter in all the asteroids is FAR less than P10E requires, indeed, they add up to less than the mass of Earth's moon, I believe, which is scarcely 1% of Earth's mass. No, there is really only one place where we can get enough matter, and that is from Jupiter's core. Since Jupiter has 250 times Earth's mass, it should be able to spare 10 Earth masses. Perhaps we could take 9 E.Ms from Jupiter and 1 from Saturn, if that turns out to be more equitable. You're right that hauling up that quantity of matter from there would be interesting! But I'm sure that the billion sq mi of solar panels I mentioned above would provide all the energy needed, though again, I haven't done the math, so can't be absolutely
positive. I really doubt that the Oort Cloud has enough matter, although I'm not positive about that. It might be a trillion times as large as the asteroid belt but it is also a trillion times less dense, or something like that, I think (give or take a factor of a billion?).
I think you're right that the watery moons of Jupiter and Saturn could provide more than enough water for P10E, because, let us suppose that water should cover 5 billion square miles of its surface; but since an ocean really doesn't need to be over 50 feet deep, we'd only need 50 million cubic miles of H2O, just a tiny fraction <<1% of Europa, probably, for example. More important, that would seem to be enough water to supply the needs of 50 billion people+megafauna+huge trees+industry, I guess, at least.
BUT GUESS where we'll get all the oxygen needed for P10E's massive atmosphere! Maybe it's obvious, but I was surprised when it dawned on me!!
There's more I want to respond to but it's getting late so I'll sign off for now while hoping to hear more from you all.
Roger
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: [world-create] Re: Help needed for creating a planet without oceans
Um, I am going to ask "why bother?" What use is a P10E type object? At 1/10th of a g (and I don't think the math is right on that, but I am not recalculating it right now), it isn't going to hold much atmosphere, and inhabitants are going to suffer serious bone loss issues. Inside will be worse - no gravity inside a sphere and you will need lots of artificial lighting. If you are going to go to all that trouble to create an artificial planet, why not make it with a useful amount of gravity? All it takes is mass, and it will be more stable than a hollow world. As for where to get the mass, the OORT cloud, trojan asteroids, meteor belt or various other places could easily provide the needed quantity, at not very terrible delta-Vs. Hauling the mass up from Jupiter's gravity well would be interesting. Of course, you also have
the issue of "where do I put this?". Hauling that much mass around could cause interesting destabilizing effects in the solar system, depending on the position (though they may take a long time to materialize). More information on why it is being built would be very nice. Kevin
From: Roger Benham <rog_benham@...>
To: world-create@yahoogroups.com; abrigon-world@yahoogroups.com; abrigon-world@googlegroups.com; geofiction@yahoogroups.com; sfconsim-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 7, 2011 10:49:57 AM
Subject: RE: [world-create] Re: Help needed for creating a planet without oceans
The acquisition of mass would be quite easy- strip mine the core of a gas giant, I doubt Jupiter would even blink at removing an Earth-sized mass. However, the problems with mining it would be intimidating. What sort of technology are you placing here?
I think it was Jack L Chalker's Wellworld which had hexagonal worldlets inside it. It strikes me that if you followed the idea of a giant buckminsterfullerine molecule, you could have IIRC hexagons surrounding pentagons in rosettes. It's a nice, easy option for game mapping, and there's a good reason for having it there since you could claim it's a strengthening structure.
As for water, that's your choice. I think there will be shared problems with P10E and Niven's Ringworld. I'm particularly thinking about the runoff from highland areas removing silt and sediment down to low lying areas,
never to return. Niven created a whole support network for the Ring; I'm presuming you're doing the same?
Do people just live on the inside or are there settlements on the outside? I like the idea of vacuum nomads wandering about on the outside, almost a folk memory to the interiors.
What are you proposing about the atmosphere? Filling such a huge sphere with an Earth-like atmosphere would be a problem. Is the entire shell filled, or is there a ceiling to create a series of sealed environments? The latter makes more sense in the event of a meteor impact puncturing the shell severely enough- if it was a single big hollow sphere all the air would be lost to space.
Given it's such a high tech world, and it wasn't evolved but created, I would be tempted to have the ideas of the original engineers dotted about: The Chang Continentals where Chang
believed that fjords were the be all and end all, the Mojinski Drifts where Mojinski wanted a series of evolutionary challenges to shape the inhabitants of the sphere, and so on. Is the technology still there or not?
It sounds intrigueing, but I think more info would help.
> To: abrigon-world@yahoogroups.com; abrigon-world@googlegroups.com; world-create@yahoogroups.com; geofiction@yahoogroups.com; sfconsim-l@yahoogroups.com
> From: abrigon@...
> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 04:54:44 -0900
> Subject: [world-create] Re: Help needed for creating a planet without oceans
>
> Ideas to help the below person? Reply to Roger if you can!
>
> Mike
> Alaska
>
> 1a. Re: Help needed for creating a planet without oceans
> Posted by: "Roger Skutt" progrev@... progrev
> Date: Thu Jan 6, 2011 9:51 pm ((PST))
>
> I do believe
that the day will come, within only a few hundred to a thousand
> years if we (humanity) choose the path of progress, when we will be able to
> construct an artificial (hollow) planet I call P10E, which will have ten
> times
> the Earth's diameter and ten times Earth's mass (and, thus, 100 times
> Earth's
> surface area, and 1/10 Earth's surface gravity)--see if you can guess where
> we
> will get most of the materials for this planet's land, seas, and air! Anyone
> wanna help design its surface pattern of lands and seas, or got any
> suggestions
> there for? I wouldn't want to design it without oceans (which may I define
> as a
> body of water covering at least 10 million sq km or 4 million sq mi), but
> anyhow, back to your concept, would your proposed world without oceans have
> large lakes or straits? Or would it be so dry that the only water would
be
> atmospheric humidity, maybe with clouds and virga (or maybe even ice, snow,
> fog,
> or even rain)?
>
> Roger
>
>
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Roger Skutt <progrev@...>
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