Can someone explain to me how to use the Class Editor? I want to make
a custom class based on "Bloodline" but I can't figure out what to put
in most of the fields.

----Original Message----

> I am using data sets that were bought from CMP. Now, to get PCGen to
> work, I ned to go over all that data and change by hand all the
> Willpower to WILL ?

No, because save names are set by game mode, and to use CMP datasets
you need to use CMP game modes and they have not been changed, so no
issue,  (on top of which, our sets are set up to run under 5.10 yet
anyway).
'
> so far. Will someone have the courage to epxlain that kind of
decision ?

Becasue it should never have been Willpower in the first place.  It
was, and always has been Will in all the books (and the SRDs).

> For me, it is really a very very big bug of the release.

How can it be?  Unless you're mixing CMP and PCGen OpenSource
datasets, there shouldn't be a problem at all.

Barak

On 4/19/06, Brass Tilde <brasstilde@...> wrote:
>
>  > > I would be curious to know why no release has been made on
> > > Sourceforge
> > > in quite a long time...
>
> > Because of lack of time of my part to prepare such a release. When I
> > first
> > release prettylst.pl to the general public, it was with the express
> > warning
> > that there it would not really be supported. I do what I can when I
> > can.
>
> Can you put it in the repo?  That would give those who have a chance to
> work on it the opportunity to do so.
>

Has someone had a chance to do this yet? If not, what's the right place to
put it?

On a related note - can we tracker something for prettylst, to add name
changes for equipment to the list - changing Potion of (.*) to \1 (Potion),
or whatever the right translations are for the changes that have been made
in the past?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "barak@..." <barak@...> wrote:
> ----Original Message----
>
> Becasue it should never have been Willpower in the first place.  It
> was, and always has been Will in all the books (and the SRDs).

Sure, but what did it gain us?  Was there value in renaming an
internal variable?  Yes, it does make things better because it is
consistent with the naming schema in the game however it's not a far
jump from "will" to "willpower" and it obviously hasn't been a big
issue.

This is a case where someone did what is normally the right thing (fix
a typo) but had the cascade effect of screwing up a lot of stuff (e.g.
all homebrew class LST files and any 3rd party R/SRD lst files).

Welcome to the twilight zone, coders, where the legacy attached to
cruft may outweigh the value in fixing an error.  May god have mercy
on your code library.

> Unless you're mixing CMP and PCGen OpenSource
> datasets, there shouldn't be a problem at all.

Or if you have homebrew class files that up until recently you could
use interchangeably with CMP and R/SRD.  Now you have to maintain 2
different sets.  Though admittedly there's not a big chance of that
but it could happen, especially if someone puts each class in its own
LST file.

-James McP

>
> While I understand your concerns, and I wish you guys the
> best in coming up
> with a good solution, I strongly urge you to consider this as
> a solution:
> just stop changing the names of things (seemingly) every
> release. Pick a name
> and stick with it. Ask "what is the need" vs. "what will be
> the cost to the
> community"? Is the change "need to have", or just somebody
> thinks it would be
> "nice to have"? If the answer is "potions (or whatever) will
> sort together,
> and that would be nice -- but it will break 500 character
> sheets", then maybe
> the benefit isn't worth the cost.
>
> It's not like the source material is constantly changing. Yes, it does
> change. Some names in 3.0 were different in 3.5. And some of
> the supplements
> use names which conflict with names in the core books. But
> that's more of a
> "fix it once" (in the release of PCGen which first includes
> the conflicting
> material) than a "tinker with it endlessly". Fixing a typo in
> a name? Cool.
> Changing a name just to make it sort differently? Not cool.
>
> As the original poster and Benjamin and other posters have
> pointed out (each
> in their own way), it defeats the purpose of PCGen
> (convenience) to have to
> re-edit your character sheets to comply with these constant small but
> irritating changes in each release. (Or all-too-frequently
> recreate them from
> scratch because it's just easier.)
>
> My $.02.
>
> Michael
>

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating to go crazy on name changes, in fact
we have certain standards to follow, and normally a name is not going to
change unless a mistake was made, and then only one change should be
necessary.

But there can be possible reasons that may require us to change some of the
standards. For instance if we found that something is very unintuitive to
use, and we were getting feedback from new users complaining about that,
then we might consider to change the standards. A change will not be made on
a whim and should only be done for a good reason, but I'm sure we will have
to do it in the future. It is simply not possible to have the names etched
in stone.

For LST syntax the name is nothing else but a tag. And it is obviously a tag
that has to serve too many purposes. It should just be the word that is
displayed, and not influence the saving of the object in the character file.
Once we have another tag to take that role, we can change names where needed
without it having influence on existing characters. And that is the path I
want to take with this.

Cheerio,

Frank Kliewe
PCGen Content Silverback

--
Nothing is what it seems.
(John Baxter in "Don't look now", 1973)

On May 3, 2006, at 4:17 PM, Frank Kliewe wrote:
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating to go crazy on name changes,
> in fact
> we have certain standards to follow, and normally a name is not
> going to
> change unless a mistake was made, and then only one change should be
> necessary.
>

I would agree with the above statement, if it were edited as follows:
"... in <theory> we have certain standards to follow, and <in theory>
a name <shouldn't> change unless a mistake was made, and then only
one change should be necessary."

I would think that the source documents -- in this case, the PHB, DMG
and MM, along with their errata -- would define the "standards". [If
WotC chooses to call one thing a "Sword (Short)" and another thing a
"Longsword", then those are the terms we should use regardless of the
fact that they don't follow the same syntax (and may thus be
unintuitive for someone who doesn't have the books).] The source
documents are relatively fixed and unchanging (aside from the errata).

In practice, it seems that names are changed -- not on whim, but by
committee and for reasons which they feel are just -- nearly every
release.

This is inconsistent with the position you state above.

> ... It is simply not possible to have the names etched in stone.

I don't understand why not.

>
> For LST syntax the name is nothing else but a tag. And it is
> obviously a tag
> that has to serve too many purposes. It should just be the word
> that is
> displayed, and not influence the saving of the object in the
> character file.
> Once we have another tag to take that role, we can change names
> where needed
> without it having influence on existing characters. And that is the
> path I
> want to take with this.
>
> Cheerio,
>
> Frank Kliewe
> PCGen Content Silverback

Well, I think you're[1] going to an awful lot of trouble to address
an issue that's created by your[1] own doing -- hung by your own
petard, so to speak -- but I'm not writing the code, so best of luck.

Michael

[1] and by "you" I mean the PCGen developers, not you personally :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 5/4/06, Michael <java_kensai@...> wrote:
>
> On May 3, 2006, at 4:17 PM, Frank Kliewe wrote:
> I would think that the source documents -- in this case, the PHB, DMG
> and MM, along with their errata -- would define the "standards". [If
> WotC chooses to call one thing a "Sword (Short)" and another thing a
> "Longsword", then those are the terms we should use regardless of the
> fact that they don't follow the same syntax (and may thus be
> unintuitive for someone who doesn't have the books).] The source
> documents are relatively fixed and unchanging (aside from the errata).

Actually in our case I believe this should be the SRD, RSRD, and MSRD.

--
Truth.
There is no religion higher than the Truth.

On May 3, 2006, at 4:58 PM, Truth wrote:

> On 5/4/06, Michael <java_kensai@...> wrote:
>>
>> On May 3, 2006, at 4:17 PM, Frank Kliewe wrote:
>> I would think that the source documents -- in this case, the PHB, DMG
>> and MM, along with their errata -- would define the "standards". [If
>> WotC chooses to call one thing a "Sword (Short)" and another thing a
>> "Longsword", then those are the terms we should use regardless of the
>> fact that they don't follow the same syntax (and may thus be
>> unintuitive for someone who doesn't have the books).] The source
>> documents are relatively fixed and unchanging (aside from the
>> errata).
>
> Actually in our case I believe this should be the SRD, RSRD, and MSRD.
>

True. :-)

Michael

>
> I would agree with the above statement, if it were edited as
> follows:
> "... in <theory> we have certain standards to follow, and <in
> theory>
> a name <shouldn't> change unless a mistake was made, and then only
> one change should be necessary."
>

I am a member of this team for 14 months now. I do not recall any names
being changed twice in this time, although my memory may fail me there, as I
do not work close with the fantasy sets.

> I would think that the source documents -- in this case, the
> PHB, DMG
> and MM, along with their errata -- would define the "standards". [If
> WotC chooses to call one thing a "Sword (Short)" and another thing a
> "Longsword", then those are the terms we should use
> regardless of the
> fact that they don't follow the same syntax (and may thus be
> unintuitive for someone who doesn't have the books).] The source
> documents are relatively fixed and unchanging (aside from the errata).
>
> In practice, it seems that names are changed -- not on whim, but by
> committee and for reasons which they feel are just -- nearly every
> release.
>
> This is inconsistent with the position you state above.

I am aware of 3 classes (2 MSRD, 1 RSRD), 2 pieces of equipment (1 MSRD, 1
RSRD) and the Will save having their names changed in the 5.10 production
cycle. The majority of these changes has been made because users bothered
enough about them not being correct to the source, that they filed a Bug
report. I'll stay with my position.

>
> > ... It is simply not possible to have the names etched in stone.
>
> I don't understand why not.
>

Sorry, I cannot explain it any simpler as I already did.

> >
> > For LST syntax the name is nothing else but a tag. And it is
> > obviously a tag
> > that has to serve too many purposes. It should just be the word
> > that is
> > displayed, and not influence the saving of the object in the
> > character file.
> > Once we have another tag to take that role, we can change names
> > where needed
> > without it having influence on existing characters. And
> that is the
> > path I
> > want to take with this.
> >
> > Cheerio,
> >
> > Frank Kliewe
> > PCGen Content Silverback
>
> Well, I think you're[1] going to an awful lot of trouble to address
> an issue that's created by your[1] own doing -- hung by your own
> petard, so to speak -- but I'm not writing the code, so best of luck.
>
> Michael
>
> [1] and by "you" I mean the PCGen developers, not you personally :-)
>

Thank you. I can understand that this issue is an annoyance for you and
others and we will do our best to find a solution that better caters for
your needs. It just needs to be flexible enough to serve other needs as
well.

Cheerio,

Frank Kliewe
PCGen Content Silverback

--
Nothing is what it seems.
(John Baxter in "Don't look now", 1973)

Just for clarity and maybe to inform those who don't know, there is no
longer a 3.0 SRD and RSRD as there once was.  Wizards has completly
abandoned the 3.0 SRD and renamed the RSRD (3.5) to SRD.

Truth wrote:

>Actually in our case I believe this should be the SRD, RSRD, and MSRD.
>
>
>
--
Steven Gilroy
"In a world without fences, who needs GATES?"

Hi,

On 04/05/06, shawnvw2001 <shawnvw@...> wrote:
> Can someone explain to me how to use the Class Editor? I want to make
> a custom class based on "Bloodline" but I can't figure out what to put
> in most of the fields.
>
The simplest way to start is by copying an existing class that is
close to what you need. There are a few gotchas like if it is a
spellcasting class, then the cast as name has to be changed when you
change the name of your class. However, you'll find that a lot of the
fields don't need to be filled in as they cover special cases. So in
the first instance if you don't understand it, just ignore it :)

The doco at http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/docs/ (or from the Help menu
in PCGen) should be a help too - the labels on the editor match the
tags reasonably closely, so you can use the index for further info on
what each label means. Otherwise we're happy to answer any questions!

--
Cheers,
James Dempsey
PCGen Code Gibbon

--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Bowers" <richard.bowers@...> wrote:
>
> There have been efforts lately to "protect", or "escape" ampersands
in some
> of the output sheet tokens - the problem is that these can also cause
> problems, because it's only in XML and HTML that you want to see &
> instead of &, and because there are places that we want an escaped
character
> in the text. You'll get this error if you use an ampersand (&)
somewhere in
> a text field, where it isn't protected. You can work around it by either
> removing the ampersand, or replacing it with &.

Yes, however, I am not the one using the ampersand, PCGen has put it
by itself in the file...

Philippe

--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Kliewe" <fkliewe@...> wrote:
>
> I am aware of 3 classes (2 MSRD, 1 RSRD), 2 pieces of equipment (1
MSRD, 1
> RSRD) and the Will save having their names changed in the 5.10
production
> cycle. The majority of these changes has been made because users
bothered
> enough about them not being correct to the source, that they filed a Bug
> report. I'll stay with my position.

Working in Systemes Engineering, i can tell you that it is not because
one user files in a bug report that it needs to be corrected,
especially if you have loads of other users. I know of "bugs" that
were corrected to the total dismay of other users that liked the other
way better or were used to their workarounds...

Ah, the eternal discussion of what is a bug and what is a feature... :)

Philippe

--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Bowers" <richard.bowers@...> wrote:
>
> Plus, if you really want to make it work, you can use PCGen's perl
script to
> automagically fix most of the changes. My custom list files are up
to about
> 600K of text by now - there were only a few things that weren't
fixed when
> by the script (natural weapons vs. auto equips), everything else worked
> fine. It took maybe a half-hour to fix those few cases manually, and
that's
> just because my toddlers tried to help.

That's when you know how to use PCGen's Perl script... Or even how to
use Perl itself...

> On the other stuff - the names of items - those sound like you're mixing
> commercial stuff (which the PCGen people CAN'T take into effect) with
> PCGen's list files. That's going to cause problems. PCGen's team
isn't CMP's
> team, just like Microsoft isn't Franklin Covey - commercial stuff
which is
> written as an add on has to take the burden of making itself work.

I'm sorry, again I don't want to be agressive towards people who
maintain such a great tool with their own personal time. Sometimes,
there can be mistakes done, etc. However, doing changes that they KNOW
will severly impact the users of external (commercial or not) data set
is really not a nice way to develop.

Philippe

--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@...> wrote:
>
> > Come on, who makes that kind of decision ? What's the point ? How can
> > you change something like that preventing backwards compatibility for
> > so many data sets, including commercial ones ?
>
> Hi pkukwork
>     As Content Silverback for the 5.10 series I made that decision
and I'd
> be happy to explain it. First some points:

Thanks for your reply, see below for my comments on it... :)

> First off the function of defining the check names is done in the
gameMode
> and is thus a function of data not code. This means that CMP is free
to use
> "Willpower", "Will", "Guts" or whatever they want to use, the Open
Sources
> decision by the data team to change this to the correct term has no
effect
> on CMP datasets what-so-ever. The OS data and CMP's data is not
currently
> compatible so this is not a compatibility issue either.

OK, understood. But then why decide to change it in the Game Mode ?

> Second, this does not effect characters made before the change
because the
> check name is not referenced in the character file, it is set in the
> gameMode and adjusted by the data so a character created before and
loaded
> with the new data should see no difference.

Because the data set that I use (both CMP and personal) use
"Willpower" instead of "WILL", the saves are wrong. Yes, you are
right, it does not affect characters that use only the data set
provided by PCGen. But see below.

> For folks who maintain their own datasets the change will need to be
made to
> maintain compatibility. But even if you can't run prettylst (and it
took me
> a while to grok it so I understand) it is a relatively simple find and
> replace bit of work.

How many changes like this are there ? Also, it is not that simple, as
there are quite a big number of files affected here and there, and not
every Willpower needs to be changed to will.

> There are various reasons for changes to the equipment names, the
example
> you cite above is done for consistency as it will group all the related
> items (Potions) in the same place on the list.

The other reasonning was nice as well, it grouped all the oils
together. It seems more a question of a whim on the data set provider
than anything else. Again, i don't blame him, he is doing this with
his free time while I am just a user. However, my point is that, in
software development, you should always weight such changes against
the annooyance that they will generate...

> A simple solution is to stick with one release for the duration of your
> campaign. How often do you upgrade? The Alpha releases are meant for
> development and you can expect to encounter problems. For my own
campaign I
> stick with the latest production release. I stuck with 5.6 through
my last
> campaign even when 5.8 came out to avoid the upgrade blues, it made
since
> because we knew we were going to wrap it up in a few months and start
> something new.

Well, my campaign is more than 3 years old (and I don't plan on
finishing it any time soon) and PCGen has progressed quite a bit
since, then, correcting a big number of things as well as bringing in
new possibilities. And I only install major releases, going from 5.8.1
to 5.10 does not seem like a very frequent change...

> As you can tell from other posts this is not the first time this
complaint
> has been made. It is taken seriously and ideas are being discussed
on how
> best to deal with it. I myself have pushed for a LST converter which
could
> convert homebrew datasets to the current standards, that did not make it
> into this release because of the unexpected deadline we were working
under.

That would be really nice to have...

> In the future I hope we will see some mechanism for a painless
character and
> dataset upgrade built into the program but we are not there yet.

Alright, thanks for the explanations. I would however like to point
out that things are certainly done backwards. It would seem much
better NOT to do changes like that — as I don't see the necessity fo
them at all, and I still don't after your post — before the tool is ready.

I think that when working with a deadline, you should concentrate on
the things that are really useful. DOing that kind of change only took
time and did (for me) not bring anything but problems in the end...

Philippe

--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "barak@..." <barak@...> wrote:
>
> > so far. Will someone have the courage to epxlain that kind of
> decision ?
>
> Becasue it should never have been Willpower in the first place.  It
> was, and always has been Will in all the books (and the SRDs).

It did not seme to cause any problem to anyone, so why change it now ?

> > For me, it is really a very very big bug of the release.
>
> How can it be?  Unless you're mixing CMP and PCGen OpenSource
> datasets, there shouldn't be a problem at all.

Of course I'm mixing. Who is not ? I don't think many people run a
"purely SRD" campaign, and I think that most people use at least the
Complete Series from WotC in their campaign. At least this is what I
find when I speak to most people I know or on mailing lists...

Philippe

Hi Philippe,
On 4/05/2006 6:17 PM pkukwork wrote

>--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Bowers" <richard.bowers@...> wrote:
>
>
>>There have been efforts lately to "protect", or "escape" ampersands
>>
>>
>in some
>
>
>>of the output sheet tokens - the problem is that these can also cause
>>problems, because it's only in XML and HTML that you want to see &
>>instead of &, and because there are places that we want an escaped
>>
>>
>character
>
>
>>in the text. You'll get this error if you use an ampersand (&)
>>
>>
>somewhere in
>
>
>>a text field, where it isn't protected. You can work around it by either
>>removing the ampersand, or replacing it with &.
>>
>>
>
>Yes, however, I am not the one using the ampersand, PCGen has put it
>by itself in the file...
>
>
>
The ampersand will come from one of the entries on the description tab
of your character. Yes it is a bug that it causes your output to break
though. I have registered a new bug for you -
<https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1481697&group_id=2557\
6&atid=384719>

Cheers,
James Dempsey
PCGen Code Gibbon

Hi all,

Eric beleives that Prettylst is at the end of its lifecycle and is not
of a quality for general public use (it would cause more harm than good).

The latest version of prettylst is on the lstfilehelp Y! group, but is
considered by Eric to be unsupported, all though of course there are
plenty of data monkeys that use it and would be happy to try and
answer questions.

There is a Tracker area for Prettylst trackers (14 items open at the
moment), feel free to add more as you see fit!

Karianna

> On 4/19/06, Brass Tilde <brasstilde@...> wrote:
> >
> >  > > I would be curious to know why no release has been made on
> > > > Sourceforge
> > > > in quite a long time...
> >
> > > Because of lack of time of my part to prepare such a release. When I
> > > first
> > > release prettylst.pl to the general public, it was with the express
> > > warning
> > > that there it would not really be supported. I do what I can when I
> > > can.
> >
> > Can you put it in the repo?  That would give those who have a
chance to
> > work on it the opportunity to do so.
> >
>
> Has someone had a chance to do this yet? If not, what's the right
place to
> put it?
>
> On a related note - can we tracker something for prettylst, to add name
> changes for equipment to the list - changing Potion of (.*) to \1
(Potion),
> or whatever the right translations are for the changes that have
been made
> in the past?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi folks,

> Eric beleives that Prettylst is at the end of its lifecycle and is not
> of a quality for general public use (it would cause more harm than good).

that's bad news, especially considering how often it's referred to on
PCGen's lists.

Eric, do you perhaps have time to talk with me about what's the reasons for
your opinion? I love perl programming, and I am working on understanding
the lst files, so I might help getting prettylst back to work, if that's
not hopeless.

	 Susan

--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, James Dempsey <jdempsey@...> wrote:
>
> The ampersand will come from one of the entries on the description tab
> of your character. Yes it is a bug that it causes your output to break
> though. I have registered a new bug for you -
>
<https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1481697&group_id=2557\
6&atid=384719>

Thanks, however, the problem is more serious. It is not only in the
description tab, but also in every description field. I have done some
testing, but an ampersand in the description of the deity (why is that
in the character sheet, by the way ?), or in the description of a feat...

That makes it a really serious bug, IMHO.

Philippe

There is a 3.0 SRD, as once published, it is out there, and we will continue to
support it.  True, Wizards no longer supports it on their website, but TheAndy
uploaded the 3.0 SRD to our group when this was first an issue, and Wizards
moved to only the RSRD on their website.  We have that 3.0 SRD in our Repository
for reference, as well as the MSRD, and 3.5 (R)SRD.  Wizards never called it the
RSRD.  Publishers, and us, named it that. :)

Tir Gwaith
LST Chimp

> Just for clarity and maybe to inform those who don't know, there is no
> longer a 3.0 SRD and RSRD as there once was.  Wizards has completly
> abandoned the 3.0 SRD and renamed the RSRD (3.5) to SRD.

> > As you can tell from other posts this is not the first time this
> complaint
> > has been made. It is taken seriously and ideas are being discussed
> on how
> > best to deal with it. I myself have pushed for a LST converter which
> could
> > convert homebrew datasets to the current standards, that did not make it
> > into this release because of the unexpected deadline we were working
> under.
>
> That would be really nice to have...

Prettylst.pl, latest version available at pcgen_experimental.  Use
-convert=Willpower and it will convert datasets from Willpower to Will.  Not as
good as having it in PCGen itself, but something. :)

Tir Gwaith
LST Chimp

Corrected location of file below, thanks Tir.

> Hi all,
>
> Eric beleives that Prettylst is at the end of its lifecycle and is
> not of a quality for general public use (it would cause more harm
> than good).
>
> The latest version of prettylst is on the pcgen_experimental Y!
> group, but is considered by Eric to be unsupported, all though of
> course there are plenty of data monkeys that use it and would be
> happy to try and answer questions.
>
> There is a Tracker area for Prettylst trackers (14 items open at the
> moment), feel free to add more as you see fit!
>
> Karianna

Bumping to Eric,

We'll happily take any and all assistance on this project :-)

We're about a core group 0f 10-15 volnuteers supporting 1000's
(probably 10,000s) of users!

Karianna
Chair Monkey

--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Susan Dittmar <Susan.Dittmar@...> wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> > Eric beleives that Prettylst is at the end of its lifecycle and is not
> > of a quality for general public use (it would cause more harm than
good).
>
> that's bad news, especially considering how often it's referred to on
> PCGen's lists.
>
> Eric, do you perhaps have time to talk with me about what's the
reasons for
> your opinion? I love perl programming, and I am working on understanding
> the lst files, so I might help getting prettylst back to work, if that's
> not hopeless.
>
>  Susan
>

> Or if you have homebrew class files that up until recently you could
> use interchangeably with CMP and R/SRD.  Now you have to maintain 2
> different sets.  Though admittedly there's not a big chance of that
> but it could happen, especially if someone puts each class in its own
> LST file.

If you aren't accessing base class VAR's all you need is two separate
.pcc files.

> > Can someone explain to me how to use the Class Editor? I want to make
> > a custom class based on "Bloodline" but I can't figure out what to put
> > in most of the fields.
> >
> The simplest way to start is by copying an existing class that is
> close to what you need. There are a few gotchas like if it is a
> spellcasting class, then the cast as name has to be changed when you
> change the name of your class.

If you copy a spell casting class be sure to add the SPELLLIST [ref,
docs] tag to the new class or create a spell.lst file with .MOD's
adding the class to the CLASSES tag.

BTW, the CASTAS has been deprecated.

--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "taluroniscandar" <mhgj@...> wrote:
>
> > Or if you have homebrew class files that up until recently you could
> > use interchangeably with CMP and R/SRD.  Now you have to maintain 2
> > different sets.  Though admittedly there's not a big chance of that
> > but it could happen, especially if someone puts each class in its own
> > LST file.
>
> If you aren't accessing base class VAR's all you need is two separate
> .pcc files.
>
Er, before the change.

After the Willpower to Will change have both in the file and it will
work as well. The undefined one will give a warning on load but have
no other direct effect.

Willpower to Will is also a publisher issue.
We were doing it wrong. We try to be as true as possible to the source
material.

--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "karianna03" <martijnverburg@...> wrote:
>
> Corrected location of file below, thanks Tir.
>
> > Eric beleives that Prettylst is at the end of its lifecycle and is
> > not of a quality for general public use (it would cause more harm
> > than good).
> >
> > The latest version of prettylst is on the pcgen_experimental Y!
> > group, but is considered by Eric to be unsupported, all though of
> > course there are plenty of data monkeys that use it and would be
> > happy to try and answer questions.
> >
> > There is a Tracker area for Prettylst trackers (14 items open at the
> > moment), feel free to add more as you see fit!

Hum, sorry to "complain again", but I went on the pcgen_experimental,
in the files area
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/files/Application%20Support/),
and clicked on  prettylst_1-35_build-561.zip.

And got: "Document Not Found - The document you requested could not be
found."

Philippe

>>> For me, it is really a very very big bug of the release.
>> How can it be?  Unless you're mixing CMP and PCGen OpenSource
>> datasets, there shouldn't be a problem at all.
>
> Of course I'm mixing. Who is not ? I don't think many people run a
> "purely SRD" campaign, and I think that most people use at least the
> Complete Series from WotC in their campaign. At least this is what I
> find when I speak to most people I know or on mailing lists...

And that is going to cause problems.  If you really want to use the
Complete series, it is best to use the PHB/DMG/MM sets that are also
sold by CMP.  If you don't, then lots of problems will have to be fixed
due to the difference in internal variables used by the datasets.

On 5/4/06 4:40 AM, "pkukwork" <philippe.krait@...>
wrote:

> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Come on, who makes that kind of decision ? What's the point ? How can
>>> you change something like that preventing backwards compatibility for
>>> so many data sets, including commercial ones ?
>>
>> Hi pkukwork
>>     As Content Silverback for the 5.10 series I made that decision
> and I'd
>> be happy to explain it. First some points:
>
> Thanks for your reply, see below for my comments on it... :)
>
>> First off the function of defining the check names is done in the
>> gameMode
>> and is thus a function of data not code. This means that CMP is free
>> to use
>> "Willpower", "Will", "Guts" or whatever they want to use, the Open
>> Sources
>> decision by the data team to change this to the correct term has no
>> effect
>> on CMP datasets what-so-ever. The OS data and CMP's data is not
>> currently
>> compatible so this is not a compatibility issue either.
>
> OK, understood. But then why decide to change it in the Game Mode ?

Because it is incorrect, the check name is "Will" not "Willpower". Your next
question will be "So what, it's an internal name, why change it?". Good
point but like so many things in PCGen it has multiple uses, some (but not
all) of the outputsheets use the check name property instead of hard coding
"Will" right on the sheet and in those cases the word "Willpower" would be
displayed.

>> Second, this does not effect characters made before the change
>> because the
>> check name is not referenced in the character file, it is set in the
>> gameMode and adjusted by the data so a character created before and
>> loaded
>> with the new data should see no difference.
>
> Because the data set that I use (both CMP and personal) use
> "Willpower" instead of "WILL", the saves are wrong. Yes, you are
> right, it does not affect characters that use only the data set
> provided by PCGen. But see below.
>
>> For folks who maintain their own datasets the change will need to be
>> made to
>> maintain compatibility. But even if you can't run prettylst (and it
>> took me
>> a while to grok it so I understand) it is a relatively simple find and
>> replace bit of work.
>
> How many changes like this are there ? Also, it is not that simple, as
> there are quite a big number of files affected here and there, and not
> every Willpower needs to be changed to will.

99% of the instances need to be converted, there were maybe 5 instances in
our repository which actually meant to use the word willpower. As for how
many changes there are like this one, that's it, I don't know if we have
ever done a conversion quite like this one. There are some class name
changes and those are mentioned in the release notes.

>> There are various reasons for changes to the equipment names, the
>> example
>> you cite above is done for consistency as it will group all the related
>> items (Potions) in the same place on the list.
>
> The other reasonning was nice as well, it grouped all the oils
> together. It seems more a question of a whim on the data set provider
> than anything else. Again, i don't blame him, he is doing this with
> his free time while I am just a user. However, my point is that, in
> software development, you should always weight such changes against
> the annooyance that they will generate...

We do for the most part, the Willpower to Will conversion was discussed long
before 5.8 came out (it was first noted in 2004), we decided to wait for the
5.9 line so it would make it into 5.10.

>> A simple solution is to stick with one release for the duration of your
>> campaign. How often do you upgrade? The Alpha releases are meant for
>> development and you can expect to encounter problems. For my own
>> campaign I
>> stick with the latest production release. I stuck with 5.6 through
>> my last
>> campaign even when 5.8 came out to avoid the upgrade blues, it made
>> since
>> because we knew we were going to wrap it up in a few months and start
>> something new.
>
> Well, my campaign is more than 3 years old (and I don't plan on
> finishing it any time soon) and PCGen has progressed quite a bit
> since, then, correcting a big number of things as well as bringing in
> new possibilities. And I only install major releases, going from 5.8.1
> to 5.10 does not seem like a very frequent change...

Yes well a number of you were not happy with my suggestion :p
It was simply that, a suggestion to wait for a convenient time to switch
versions.

Another point I'd like to make is that we just finished the RSRD and MSRD
when we added the Epic, Divine, Arcana and Future sections. If this were a
commercial venture it would work differently but it's a volunteer effort and
what you've been playing with for the last 2 years has essentially been a
work in progress.

>> As you can tell from other posts this is not the first time this
>> complaint
>> has been made. It is taken seriously and ideas are being discussed
>> on how
>> best to deal with it. I myself have pushed for a LST converter which
>> could
>> convert homebrew datasets to the current standards, that did not make it
>> into this release because of the unexpected deadline we were working
>> under.
>
> That would be really nice to have...
>
>> In the future I hope we will see some mechanism for a painless
>> character and
>> dataset upgrade built into the program but we are not there yet.
>
> Alright, thanks for the explanations. I would however like to point
> out that things are certainly done backwards. It would seem much
> better NOT to do changes like that — as I don't see the necessity fo
> them at all, and I still don't after your post — before the tool is ready.
>
> I think that when working with a deadline, you should concentrate on
> the things that are really useful. DOing that kind of change only took
> time and did (for me) not bring anything but problems in the end...
>
> Philippe

Well I spent more than half my recent time debugging the RSRD monsters to
bring the Default Monster kits in line with the text. I believe we now have
the cleanest set of monsters as we have ever had. The Will conversion we
implemented via a script and the time spent was on set up and testing, it
really didn't take all that long. Also that conversion was done back in
January before we were aware of the deadline.

So I think I think I managed my (freely donated) time quite well :-)
--
~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp