[18:00] [Chair]Eddy: OK I've got 9, lets begin
[18:00] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Ook!
[18:00] [Chair]Eddy: James, since we might lose you why don't you go first
[18:01] [Code_SB]james: Sounds like a plan
[18:02] [Code_SB]james: Code currnetly has 57 bugs open for 5.16, since
last meeting we have closed 11, deleted 1 and had 14 opened. It is
useful to note that many of these are for unusual situations
[18:02] [Code_SB]james: On the feature request front we had 4 closed
since last meeting
[18:03] [Code_SB]james: There are still 2 p8 and 2 p7 features
ooutstanding for 5.16 and untilt hey are completed I don't think we are
ready for beta.
[18:04] [Code_SB]james: On the bright side the new source dialog is
almost finished and I'll be able to assit with one of the P8/P7s after that
[18:05] [Code_SB]james: Many of the features in the 5.16 queue are
arhcitecture related so I'll let Tom talk to those, but two are for
Pathfinder support and these are where I'll be trying to help out
Stefan. All other P5 and 6 requests are not expected to be in 5.16 at
this time
[18:05] [Code_SB]james: any questions?
[18:06] [Chair]Eddy: nope
[18:06] [Admin_SB]Drew: none here
[18:06] [Chair]Eddy: K, I'll go next then
[18:06] [Chair]Eddy: Content Report:
[18:06] [Chair]Eddy: Docs
[18:06] [Chair]Eddy: Doc Bugs: 0
[18:07] [Chair]Eddy: Doc FREQs: 28 for 5.16 (40 total, unchanged since
last meeting)
[18:07] [Chair]Eddy: Output Sheets
[18:07] [Chair]Eddy: OS Bugs: 3 for 5.16 (3 total, -2 since last meeting)
[18:07] [Chair]Eddy: OS FREQs: 2 for 5.16 (37 total, +1 since last meeting)
[18:07] [Chair]Eddy: Data
[18:07] [Chair]Eddy: Data Bugs: 30 for 5.16 (48 Total, -2 since last
meeting)
[18:07] [Chair]Eddy: Data FREQs: 27 for 5.16 (102 Total, -15 since last
meeting)
[18:07] [Chair]Eddy: New Source Development: 8 for 5.16 (15 Total, -1
since last meeting)
[18:07] [Chair]Eddy: short and sweet, any questions
[18:08] [Admin_SB]Drew: none here
[18:08] [Code_SB]james: Of the freqs schduled for 5.16, how many would
you see being done before beta if it were this weekend?
[18:09] [Chair]Eddy: of the 27 only a few
[18:09] [Chair]Eddy: none of those are directly releated to 4e or
pathfinder though
[18:09] [Code_SB]james: Are any blockers for the release?
[18:09] [Chair]Eddy: not in the FREQ list
[18:10] [Code_SB]james: k
[18:10] [Chair]Eddy: the blockers are these:
[18:10] [Chair]Eddy: the Pathfinder set and the PDF OS work
[18:10] [Chair]Eddy: I'd also say maybe the 4e starter set but I'm
thinking that may be better as a separate install
[18:10] [Code_SB]james: Is there an ETA on those? or an idea of scale?
[18:11] [Chair]Eddy: something we might disscuss later
[18:11] [Code_SB]james: ok
[18:11] [Chair]Eddy: Stefan and Chuck had said they would would be ready
this week
[18:11] [Code_SB]james: Cool
[18:12] [Chair]Eddy: or at least that they planned on working on those
this week
[18:12] [Chair]Eddy: any other questions?
[18:12] [PR_SB]Maredudd: None here.
[18:12] [Admin_SB]Drew: none currently from Admin
[18:13] [Chair]Eddy: K, Eric, can you go next?
[18:13] [PR_SB]Maredudd: If there is no objection, I can go next . . .
[18:13] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Oh, I guess I should look at the screen . . . :-)
[18:14] [Admin_SB]Drew: no objections
[18:14] [Chair]Eddy: you're up
[18:15] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Paul is on for completing the OGL Review for
the latest Pathfinder AP and as soon as the RPG Beta set is ready, well
tackle that one.
[18:15] [Chair]Eddy: I just got the tracker, it'll be up tonight
[18:16] [PR_SB]Maredudd: On the PL front, we havn't heard from WotC yet
but they are busy right now.
[18:16] [PR_SB]Maredudd: I'll drop them a note next week to see how
things are going.
[18:17] [PR_SB]Maredudd: I dropped Paizo a note to see how their new
license is coming and it is making progress, but its not ready yet.
[18:17] [PR_SB]Maredudd: I also let Paizo know that we would be putting
out the alpha version of out PAthfinder set soon with a target of late
Dec for final release. They were happy with that plan.
[18:18] [PR_SB]Maredudd: And, also on the PL front, Pinnacle has
extended their d20 permissions to the Savage Wolrds rules et.
[18:19] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Finally, on the Advertising front, PRs went out
to all the regular sites after the last release with only a slight delay
while I had to do real work at my day job.
[18:20] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Also, I have made contact with my local gaming
store and they are very interested in me coming in and doing a PCGen day
after the new year . . . Just in time to puch 5.16 . . .:-)
[18:20] [PR_SB]Maredudd: I'll try to put together a PR package that can
be made available to anyone else inerested in doing the same.
[18:20] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Any questions?
[18:20] [OGL]Nylanfs: I still have flyers in case anyone wants some to
hand out. That includes people reading the log. :)
[18:22] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Cool. I have no more flyers, as those, and the
last of the CDs are what I went to the gamng store to drop off. They
gave out the first batch I gave them
[18:22] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Oh, one more thing.
[18:23] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Paul just reminded me that for the non-OGL
material we release, we will need to make sure we get an approved
COPYRIGHT statement. Paizo has provided us with one for their material,
even though its OGL, so we can use it as a template
[18:24] [PR_SB]Maredudd: When we get ready to release athe Savage Wold
set, I'll have the proper statement included from Pinnacle.
[18:24] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Thats really all this time. Any questions?
[18:24] [Chair]Eddy: nope
[18:24] [Admin_SB]Drew: None here
[18:25] [Code_SB]james: no, all sounds good
[18:25] [Chair]Eddy: Drew, ready to go?
[18:25] [Admin_SB]Drew: Yup
[18:25] [Chair]Eddy: you're up
[18:25] [Admin_SB]Drew: Admin Report

Tracker – No changes of note
Many self made to correct issues found during some discussions
[18:25] [Admin_SB]Drew: Release – Beta was scheduled for this weekend,
but it sounds like that is going to be delayed by gating issues (current
version is 5.15.7).
Questions need to go through James Dempsey on that status.
[18:26] [Admin_SB]Drew: Website – Admin got hit by serious RL issues.
1)Site testing is at a standstill. 5.x is broken, 6.x no progress
besides some updates
2)David has setup a test site, same results. The mailing list seems to
be a major no-go for us.
[18:26] [Admin_SB]Drew: 1)
2)Hosting options – my god brother has set up a site for me to test out.
Besides James, only I am currently messing around with it. I'll be
testing the mailing list and see if it's a hosting problem.
3)Web team members are busy so it's hard to get anyone working on
anything in a concerted effort. I'll be in contact with each via email
and the webteam Yahoo group.
[18:26] [Admin_SB]Drew: Personal Admin Projects also in progress -
4e documentation – collaborating with PR (Eric) – These will be moved to
the main set once Eric has reviewed them.
4e skeleton set is in the notfordistribution folder in the main svn –
this set includes the data structure and gamemode. We need testers to
check the gamemode as that was not really reviewed for 4e accuracy.
[18:26] [Admin_SB]Drew: Is there anything else Admin can assist with for
the other groups? or Questions?
[18:27] [Admin_SB]Drew: (Admin Report Done)
[18:27] [Admin_SB]Drew: :)
[18:27] [PR_SB]Maredudd: (Eric is working as Doc 2nd for the 4e stuff . . .)
[18:29] [Chair]Eddy: I think we should talk about the 4e stuff after
reports but no other questions
[18:29] [Admin_SB]Drew: Over to Tom and Arch then... :)
[18:30] [Chair]Eddy: right, you're up Tom
[18:30] [Arch_SB]thpr: ok
[18:30] [Arch_SB]thpr: there are a number of issues that still need to
be resolved from the Arch perspective for 5.16
[18:30] [Arch_SB]thpr: First, if there are no objections, I am going to
assert solution #1 from this thread:
[18:30] [Arch_SB]thpr:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/message/11965
[18:30] [Arch_SB]thpr: regarding ADD:ABILITY rejecting AUTOMATIC
[18:31] [Code_SB]james: Agreed
[18:31] [Arch_SB]thpr: Second, thanks to Drew - He tested ADD: changes
to make sure 5.14 PCG files load properly into 5.16
[18:31] [Chair]Eddy: Agreed
[18:31] [Arch_SB]thpr: which was a significant convern of mine, since
that's one of the more sensitive areas of code I'm ripping up
[18:32] [Arch_SB]thpr: Third, there is still an outstanding issue on
AUTO: and PRExxx
[18:32] [Arch_SB]thpr:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/message/11949
[18:33] [Arch_SB]thpr: I can't find it on the Wiki, but James helped to
rebuild the table to help in consideration of the solution in those cases
[18:33] [Chair]Eddy:
http://www.pcgen-test.org/wiki/index.php?title=Prerequisites_for_Armor_and_Shiel\
d_Proficiencies
[18:33] [Arch_SB]thpr: ah, yes, thanks
[18:33] [Arch_SB]thpr: that is a gate on me finishing the token conversion
[18:33] [Chair]Eddy: it's making my brain hurt
[18:33] [Arch_SB]thpr: :)
[18:34] [Arch_SB]thpr: I'm good at that sometimes
[18:34] [Arch_SB]thpr: Fourth, TYPE is magical in Skills
[18:34] [Arch_SB]thpr:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen_experimental/message/11960
[18:34] [Arch_SB]thpr: another issue to be flattened before token
conversion can be completed
[18:34] [Arch_SB]thpr: Fifth, harking back to James' report, Tracker
1999241 is effectively gated by token conversion
[18:35] [Arch_SB]thpr: 1999526 is an hour or two of effort, but is just
another thing to get to
[18:35] [Arch_SB]thpr: Sixth, ADD:SAB looks to be a challenge
[18:36] [Arch_SB]thpr: it does a bunch of weird stuff and I'd like to
tear it out
[18:36] [Arch_SB]thpr: I'll bring to _experimental, just want to
highlight as another token conversion issue
[18:36] [Arch_SB]thpr: those are the storm clouds in my county
[18:36] [Arch_SB]thpr: questions?
[18:37] [Chair]Eddy: nope, that was plenty enough to chew on ;-)
[18:37] [Admin_SB]Drew: Yikes, I'll say no to save the headache from
coming... :)
[18:38] [Code_SB]james: What's the best way fo addressing those - on
exp, or here?
[18:38] [Code_SB]james: Given it would be nice to clear them ASAP
[18:38] [OGL]Nylanfs: Why would you use ADD:SAB?
[18:38] [Admin_SB]Drew: I say here... they've all been brought up on exp
already
[18:38] [Chair]Eddy: lets give it a shot
[18:38] [Arch_SB]thpr: well, can we agree on AUTO:/PRExxx behavior? I
would think we'd want Tir's input?
[18:39] [Chair]Eddy: if we can't easily be resolved we'll put it back on
experimental
[18:40] [Arch_SB]thpr: I strongly feel for 2d
[18:40] [Arch_SB]thpr: I'm okay wiht 3 b or c
[18:41] [Arch_SB]thpr: I think c is better because it's a bit less
magical, but it also holds less to the name of the PRExxx
[18:41] [Arch_SB]thpr: so perhaps there's a 3C1 which renames
PREARMORPROF to PREPROFICIENTWITHARMOR
[18:41] [Arch_SB]thpr: to avoid confusion in that case
[18:42] [OGL]Nylanfs: Kinda long for a prexxx
[18:42] [Admin_SB]Drew: 3c1 and 3c
[18:42] [Arch_SB]thpr: PREPROFWITHARMOR
[18:42] [Arch_SB]thpr: ?
[18:43] [Admin_SB]Drew: That sounds better
[18:43] [Admin_SB]Drew: Good for you Paul?
[18:43] [Code_SB]james: I prefer PREPROFWITHARMOUR :P
[18:43] [Arch_SB]thpr: LOL
[18:43] [OGL]Nylanfs: I think that's aprt of the internationalization
isn't it :)
[18:43] [Code_SB]james: but I think that battle is lost already!
[18:44] [OGL]Nylanfs: I'm just thinking of all the typing when creating
new datasets. :)
[18:44] [OGL]Nylanfs: less typing is better, as long as it's precise
[18:45] [Arch_SB]thpr: understood
[18:45] [Admin_SB]Drew: Yeah, I agree with that
[18:45] [Admin_SB]Drew: PREPROFWITHARMOR is fine
[18:45] [Admin_SB]Drew: Can't wait for PRE:PROFWITHARMOR
[18:47] [Arch_SB]thpr: ok, so any last objections to 2d and 3c with a
rename to PREPROFWITHARMOR
[18:47] [Arch_SB]thpr: ok, on to SKILLS and TYPE
[18:47] [Admin_SB]Drew: None here... we can put it on exp so Tir can
chime in
[18:47] [Arch_SB]thpr: right now TYPE in Skills is a bit magical
[18:48] [Arch_SB]thpr: in that the first TYPE is special
[18:48] [Arch_SB]thpr: and ignored in the filters
[18:48] [OGL]Nylanfs: I agree that the magical effects should be
stripped out
[18:48] [Arch_SB]thpr: I found - I think - a better solution than what
was discussed so far on _Exp
[18:48] [Arch_SB]thpr: what I would propose is changing this to be order
independent
[18:48] [Arch_SB]thpr: but so that in 5.16 it ignores any TYPE that
matches the KEYSTAT
[18:48] [Arch_SB]thpr: so the behavior change is very minor
[18:49] [Arch_SB]thpr: and will only impact folks that don't have it as
the first type (and thus were violating assumptions about the data)
[18:49] [Arch_SB]thpr: we can then do the larger fixes in 5.17 that
given teh new BONUS, PRExxx, etc. that allow KEYSTAT=x
[18:50] [Code_SB]james: That sounds like a good compromise - does it
solve the problem for you Tom?
[18:50] [Arch_SB]thpr: yes, it does
[18:50] [Chair]Eddy: Of course, I suggested linking them in the gameMode
but you don't need to, they already are. PCGen knows the name and
abbreviations of all the stats already
[18:50] [Admin_SB]Drew: I agree
[18:51] [Admin_SB]Drew: Tom your solution sounds good.
[18:51] [Arch_SB]thpr: ok, any last objections?
[18:52] [Arch_SB]thpr: Drew's gonna post to both of these threads in
_exp in order to ensure it gets covered for "listeners" there
[18:52] [Arch_SB]thpr: last one is ADD:SAB
[18:52] [Arch_SB]thpr: To answer Paul's question from earlier, I'm not
entirely sure when you would use it
[18:53] [Arch_SB]thpr: I think it's a relic of SAB: heavy days
[18:53] [Chair]Eddy: I'm sure you're right
[18:53] [Arch_SB]thpr: no sign of it in any data I can find
[18:53] [Arch_SB]thpr: so can we recklessly tear it out?
[18:54] [OGL]Nylanfs: Really I can't see using it in anything other than
a object that you could use a SAB normally
[18:54] [OGL]Nylanfs: ie feat. ability object class
[18:54] [Admin_SB]Drew: Yeah, I don't use it, I can think of other
methods, I say yank it.
[18:55] [Chair]Eddy: Tom, it looks straight forward, what is the
weirdness that it does?
[18:55] [Arch_SB]thpr: don't trust the docs
[18:55] [Arch_SB]thpr: I think there is a lot of BONUS in brackets magic
that goes on
[18:55] [Arch_SB]thpr: but it's pretty hard to trace because it doesn't
have its own levelability
[18:56] [Arch_SB]thpr: I've been trying to narrow it down by converting
the other ADD: items, but haven't distilled it completely
[18:56] [Arch_SB]thpr: if I can figure it out, I will convert it over
[18:56] [Arch_SB]thpr: but it's pretty hard to track which code path is
being used
[18:57] [Arch_SB]thpr: especially because we don't have any data that
uses it
[18:57] [Arch_SB]thpr: so I'm not sure what the "proper" syntax looked like
[18:57] [Chair]Eddy: OK, for the record if it were to fall by the
wayside I don't see it as a great loss since there are multiple other
ways to handle that
[18:58] [Arch_SB]thpr: k
[18:59] [Arch_SB]thpr: oh, I have one other question on TYPEs
[18:59] [Arch_SB]thpr: if we're done with ADD:SAB
[18:59] [Chair]Eddy: no questions here
[18:59] [Arch_SB]thpr: right now TYPE is universally output in upper case
[18:59] [Admin_SB]Drew: Yeah, I'm good
[18:59] [Arch_SB]thpr: are there OS that depend on that behavior?
[19:00] [OGL]Nylanfs: It is?
[19:00] [Chair]Eddy: I don't think so
[19:00] [OGL]Nylanfs: I guess I never looked at the raw output
[19:00] [Arch_SB]thpr: y, e.g. ARMOR.MEDIUM.SUIT.STANDARD.METAL
[19:00] [Chair]Eddy: hold on
[19:01] [Arch_SB]thpr: because my new code tends to avoid the
.toUpperCase and toLowerCase calls, I end up with things like
[19:01] [Arch_SB]thpr: Armor.Medium.Suit.Standard.Metal
[19:01] [Chair]Eddy: I don't think it is a problem Tom
[19:01] [OGL]Nylanfs: Some of the TYPE's are uppcase, indicating a data
standard.
[19:02] [Chair]Eddy: I've got this in a sheet:
[19:02] [Chair]Eddy: |IIF(ABILITYALL.Special
Ability.VISIBLE.%specialActions.TYPE=SpecialAttack.TYPE:AttackOption)|
[19:02] [OGL]Nylanfs: but that's in the data itself
[19:02] [Chair]Eddy: and it works fine
[19:02] [Arch_SB]thpr: k
[19:02] [Arch_SB]thpr: I'll have to do a testing on it, but just wanted
to check
[19:02] [Chair]Eddy: that what you needed to know?
[19:02] [Arch_SB]thpr: y
[19:03] [Arch_SB]thpr: I think that covers my issues
[19:03] [Chair]Eddy: I guess the OS is case blind
[19:03] [Code_SB]james: Quite likely
[19:04] [Chair]Eddy: OK then, I think the first discussion item should
be the beta, are we ready or do we need a delay or another alpha?
[19:04] [Arch_SB]thpr: I'm iffy at best
[19:04] [Arch_SB]thpr: I have a lot to do in the next week
[19:05] [Chair]Eddy: I've stated contents gate items, Pathfinder and PDF
work, and I'm not sure of the status yet
[19:06] [Arch_SB]thpr: perhaps we need to trade some mail on the board
list on Fri or so as we know more?
[19:06] [Admin_SB]Drew: Sounds like a plan
[19:06] [Chair]Eddy: sounds like a plan
[19:06] [Arch_SB]thpr: well, that was controvertial
[19:06] [Chair]Eddy: :-)
[19:07] [Chair]Eddy: in that case I wanted to talk about 4e, does anyone
have any other discussion items before we go into that?
[19:07] [Arch_SB]thpr: not me
[19:07] [Admin_SB]Drew: nope
[19:08] [Admin_SB]Drew: (dinner time, I'll be away for ten minutes)
[19:08] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Nothing from me . ..
[19:08] *** You are now known as AFK_Admin_Drew.
[19:08] [Chair]Eddy: I've looked at the 4e starter set and I've started
building an html sheet for it, it seems not ready for prime time
[19:09] [Chair]Eddy: I've been thinking it may be best to ffer this as a
separate download
[19:09] [PR_SB]Maredudd: I agree.
[19:09] [OGL]Nylanfs: Yes I agree also
[19:09] [Chair]Eddy: mostly because I think it may need to be updated as
we work on it after 5.16 is out
[19:10] [Chair]Eddy: and also because it's not really a complete set
[19:11] [Arch_SB]thpr: can the incremental releases include game modes?
[19:11] [Chair]Eddy: Yes
[19:11] [Arch_SB]thpr: or I should say OOC release
[19:11] [Chair]Eddy: yeah, they can have anything you want to go into
the pcgen folder
[19:12] [Chair]Eddy: it does give a warning for non-data files but it
works quite well
[19:12] [PR_SB]Maredudd: There is a limit though on hw many files you
can install outside the data folder . . . at least until James fixes
that issue . . .
[19:12] [Chair]Eddy: really?
[19:12] [PR_SB]Maredudd: The limit lies somewhere between 294 files and
490 . . .
[19:13] [Chair]Eddy: who discovered that? (and what in the world were
they doing?)
[19:13] [Arch_SB]thpr: that sounds weird
[19:13] [PR_SB]Maredudd: I built a large OOC file for personal use and
PCGen gacked on it until I reduced the file count . . .
[19:13] [Arch_SB]thpr: is that trackered?
[19:14] [PR_SB]Maredudd: James said it was an AWT or SWING thing . . .
[19:14] [PR_SB]Maredudd: I'm not sure.
[19:14] [Arch_SB]thpr: I don't see one in a quick glance, so can you
double check and make sure it gets trackered
[19:14] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Yep!
[19:16] [Code_SB]james: Not trackered yet - the issue is that the dialog
lists all of the files and spills over the edge of the screen. It copes
for a while but for a really large dialog it just crashes.
[19:16] *** You are now known as [Admin_SB]Drew.
[19:16] [Admin_SB]Drew: back
[19:16] [Code_SB]james: The solution is to put the list of fioles into a
scrolling list
[19:16] [Arch_SB]thpr: ah, ok
[19:17] [Arch_SB]thpr: still needs a tracker, though :)
[19:18] [Code_SB]james: Agreed
[19:18] [Chair]Eddy: Drew, any objection to offering the 4e starter set
as a separate download?
[19:18] [Admin_SB]Drew: none
[19:18] [Admin_SB]Drew: It's not a true set, so makes sense
[19:19] [Chair]Eddy: OK, as we're all agreed on that I have no more,
anyone else have anything to discuss?
[19:19] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Nothing from PR . . .
[19:19] [Admin_SB]Drew: Nope, RL has kept me busier than normal. so
nothing from Admin
[19:19] [Arch_SB]thpr: not from me
[19:20] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Hey, I do have a question . . .
[19:20] [Chair]Eddy: shoot
[19:21] [PR_SB]Maredudd: The last several stable releases there has been
extensive work at cleaning up the LST Tags. When do we think we will
tackle the OS Tokens?
[19:21] [PR_SB]Maredudd: If they need it, that is . . . :-)
[19:22] [Arch_SB]thpr: 6.4 maybe 6.6
[19:22] [Arch_SB]thpr: (kidding)
[19:22] [Arch_SB]thpr: I really have no idea at this point
[19:22] [Arch_SB]thpr: I'm sure they do need it
[19:23] [Arch_SB]thpr: if nothing else to get the docs complete
[19:23] [Arch_SB]thpr: since we haven't even done that scrub
[19:23] [PR_SB]Maredudd: k. I'm planning on tackling the OS docs in a
big way after this nextstable release.
[19:23] [Arch_SB]thpr: my focus has really been on the token/loader
system and I haven't put much time into anything outside that over the
last 6 mo
[19:24] [Code_SB]james: I think the next big step with OS will be to
look at a templating engine - freemarker or velocity come to mind - to
replace our home grown one
[19:24] [PR_SB]Maredudd: I'm not familiar with either of those . . .
I'll need to do some studyng.
[19:26] [PR_SB]Maredudd: Ok, there is a lot of websites that discuss
both . . . :-)
[19:28] [Chair]Eddy: anything more or shall we call this done?
[19:28] [Admin_SB]Drew: I second the motion for Done
[19:28] [OGL]Nylanfs: none from me
[19:28] [OGL]Nylanfs: Eric, check message
[19:29] [PR_SB]Maredudd: None here . . . I'l post to you paul!
[19:29] [Chair]Eddy: let's call it a night then. *bangs gavel*, thanks
for coming everyone.

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Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"