--- In paragons@yahoogroups.com, Namergon <namergon@...> wrote:
>
> In fact, the reason why I've not upgraded until now if more for
> background than for mechanics reasons.
> Indeed, for me the Immortal 1st rules are not separate from its
setting,
> the rules have the "pre-Great Betrayal period" feel. I may improve
the
> mechanics with ideas from other systems, including and before all
the
> 3rd edition system, but I do want to keep it "1st ed".
>
> Then when the campaign has progressed enough, I will take the
> opportunity to increase the "shock" by convert to 3rd edition
mechanics.
> Probably with at least some characters from the "1st ed" era.
>
> Ghislain

You have sort of touched upon something I've been thinking about.
That
is, when I first learned about the Narrator's Guide (back when the
Players Guide was only just coming out!), one of the things that I
was
most interested in was a comment that Rick had made that the Guide
would allow you to play in particular 'periods' in the game
history..
For example, the Age of Myth, the Stratagem, Pre-Geat Betrayal (if
you
don't consider that the Stratagem as well), and Post Great Betrayal.

Like Ghislain mentioned, I love the feel of first edition. I really
don't like the core mechanics however. That is not to disrespect
those
who do like them... But more to the point, I'm pleased and excited
that
we may finally have a compromise. Something that makes us all happy.

I've been on the lists before, and I like to think that I always
brought a lot of energy when I did post. I would speculate about
secrets. Ask questions about things that have been obscured. Even
wild
conspiracy theories, like some of the underlying symbolism. I never
flattered myself to think I was right, but energy would get quite
high.

What would always shut me down from posting anything at all would be
people who came poured derision on the new direction that Rick was
trying to take in the 3rd Edition. Not outright disrespect, just
remarks that they loved 1st edition and could care less about this
new
one, and they were only interested in more lore. I would just watch
the
list dwindle in the number posts as if all the energy had just been
sapped right away. It was sad really. Twice it made me stop reading
and
posting.

And for the record, that wasn't meant to be an indictment about
either
of you gentlemen. Just a reflection on past memories.

Again, I'm excited that maybe this new edition will bridge the gap
for all of us..

In fact, the reason why I've not upgraded until now if more for
background than for mechanics reasons.
Indeed, for me the Immortal 1st rules are not separate from its setting,
the rules have the "pre-Great Betrayal period" feel. I may improve the
mechanics with ideas from other systems, including and before all the
3rd edition system, but I do want to keep it "1st ed".

Then when the campaign has progressed enough, I will take the
opportunity to increase the "shock" by convert to 3rd edition mechanics.
Probably with at least some characters from the "1st ed" era.

Ghislain

rhishisikk wrote:

>I've found that taking the old limit (15) and the new limit (9)
>allows for a division of 5/3 (For every five points of old stat,
>assign three; then add half the remainder) works.  I'm sorry, but the
>elders have never been about stats for me.  With the possible
>exceptions of 'thugs' like Gilgamesh, Hercules, and Thor, most of the
>elders weave complicated games of politics.  (I should also state
>that Elders in my game are finding it difficult to give up
>the 'habits' they developed during the Stratagem.)
>
>But if this leaves you feeling that Elders are now wimpy, feel free
>to treat the statistic cap as only applying to the Reborn; after all,
>they haven't had thousands of people worshipping them for
>generations.  I find no reference to Smedly Smith in the Illiad,
>Odyssey, and Aenead, nor in any similar works.
>
>The bottom line is the Golden Rule: "It's your game.  If the rules
>are getting in the way, toss them.  If you need rules that aren't
>there, make them."
>
>Mike Kochis
>AKA Python the Protean Slayer
>
>
>
>IMMORTAL RPG DISCUSSION LIST
>  Post message: paragons@yahoogroups.com
>  Unsubscribe:  paragons-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  List owner:   info@...
>  http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/paragons
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

I've found that taking the old limit (15) and the new limit (9)
allows for a division of 5/3 (For every five points of old stat,
assign three; then add half the remainder) works.  I'm sorry, but the
elders have never been about stats for me.  With the possible
exceptions of 'thugs' like Gilgamesh, Hercules, and Thor, most of the
elders weave complicated games of politics.  (I should also state
that Elders in my game are finding it difficult to give up
the 'habits' they developed during the Stratagem.)

But if this leaves you feeling that Elders are now wimpy, feel free
to treat the statistic cap as only applying to the Reborn; after all,
they haven't had thousands of people worshipping them for
generations.  I find no reference to Smedly Smith in the Illiad,
Odyssey, and Aenead, nor in any similar works.

The bottom line is the Golden Rule: "It's your game.  If the rules
are getting in the way, toss them.  If you need rules that aren't
there, make them."

Mike Kochis
AKA Python the Protean Slayer

Ghislain,

I've always been a 1st ed GM too, but I found that
upgrading to 3rd edition to be almost entirely painless.

My only major issue is trying to figure out how to handle
converting high level characters to the new system
constraints (power levels are scaled down).  I've cunningly
sidestepped this problem by not bringing in any of the old
characters yet.

-Max

--- "namergon@..." <namergon@...> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm taking the opportunity of the Narrator's Guide
> mention to add my support to you Rick.
> Note that I'm currently still using 1st edition
> mechanics, BUT for everything in these mechanics for
> which I have questions, I look into 3rd edition for my
> answer, twisting them for a 1st ed setting if necessary.
> So, 3rd edition is something I'm looking for too, despite
> the fact I'm still a 1st edition GM.
> (and I intend to upgrade someday, when my campaign goes
> past the Great Betrayal ;-) ).
>
> Go on the good job and thanks for it!
>
> Kind Regards,
> Ghislain
>
> --------------------- ALICE SECURITE ENFANTS
> ---------------------
> Protégez vos enfants des dangers d'Internet en installant
> Sécurité Enfants, le contrôle parental d'Alice.
> http://www.aliceadsl.fr/securitepc/default_copa.asp
>
>
>




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
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in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097

Hi all,

I'm taking the opportunity of the Narrator's Guide mention to add my support to
you Rick.
Note that I'm currently still using 1st edition mechanics, BUT for everything in
these mechanics for which I have questions, I look into 3rd edition for my
answer, twisting them for a 1st ed setting if necessary.
So, 3rd edition is something I'm looking for too, despite the fact I'm still a
1st edition GM.
(and I intend to upgrade someday, when my campaign goes past the Great Betrayal
;-) ).

Go on the good job and thanks for it!

Kind Regards,
Ghislain

--------------------- ALICE SECURITE ENFANTS ---------------------
Protégez vos enfants des dangers d'Internet en installant Sécurité Enfants, le
contrôle parental d'Alice.
http://www.aliceadsl.fr/securitepc/default_copa.asp

Thanks for the clarification on this!  Khemia is a powerful
serenade, but it's one that is dear to my heart.

The person who asked the question is a player in my PBP
game online, and this is very helpful in allowing me to
craft a result that makes sense.

By the way, I read the Narrator's guide preview and was
giddy for days.  It's excellent work and I look forward to
buying the full version!


(feel free to drop by and give feedback for my play-by-post
game.  I'm sorry, I can't accept more players, I've already
got my hands extremely full. The forum the game is located
on is found at:
http://www.pimptania.com/index.php?showforum=36 )

--- Rick Don <rickdon@...> wrote:

> You've raised a good question, and one that will truly be
> "answered" in the
> Narrator's Guide (which by the way my wife's medical
> issues are finally
> wrapped up and with the holidays out of the way and the
> new ISP and
> webhosting in place I can get back to some real work on
> it).  But tonight I
> will make clear the "Golden Rule" of Serenades. In
> summary:
>
> "The universe does not like to have its natural order
> disturbed.  Using one
> attention to purposely substitute for another will often
> result in the Aria
> fighting back (raising target numbers beyond the norm) as
> the serenade is
> being played; even without faith backing its resistance
> up."
>
> So, if you used Khemia to give the door a fluid property,
> I would rule that
> your effect level could reduce the BODY of the door in a
> Strength contest
> for you to push through it (like going through a wall of
> jello).  If you
> used Khemia to cause the door to fall apart, you just
> tried to substitute
> Mimicry for the attention of Destruction and therefore it
> should actually be
> harder to use the serenade on the door.
>
> A door easily counts as a single "target".  If you tried
> to hit a house
> you'd have to spend a little Immaculum to do an AOE (Area
> of Effect) to get
> all the walls and the roof. (3rd Edition ruling
> obviously).
>
> You do not have to touch both items, but they have to be
> handy, and nearby
> enough to be in decent line of sight.  If the target is
> behind you and the
> recipient in front of you, the serenade will have a
> little difficulty.  If
> the marshmallow is on a table 20 yards away, it is going
> to count as a
> rather small target and give you at least a light penalty
> based on
> difficulty to see it among the other items on the
> table... And remember you
> are going against both the marshmallow and the sword in
> order to transfer
> the property (it's a multiple target serenade by design,
> hence the cost
> factor of 5 in purchasing it).
>
> In third Edition terms you can easily create your shirt
> so long as you have
> the needed items/environment at hand.  In first Edition
> terms, increase the
> complexity by one additional level for each property
> beyond the first you
> wish to copy to the recipient object.
>
> Rick Don
> Designer - Immortal 3rd Edition
> rickdon@...
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>  From: paragons@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:paragons@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of jbeckmann_1999
>  Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 6:08 PM
>  To: paragons@yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: [immortal-l] Khemia
>
>
>
>  I'm curious about how to define the characteristic of
> the elements
>  being borrowed from one element to be placed in the
> other.
>
>  My example is a locked door and a glass of water. I want
> to take the
>  fluid motion of the water and apply it to the door, so
> the door will
>  just collapse and I can walk through.
>
>  If area is a concern, I would only go after the door
> knob to assume
>  that I could push open the door since the looking
> mechanism fell
> apart.
>
>  Do I have to be able to touch both elements in order for
> Khemia to
>  work? The examples with fire seem to imply that I only
> need to be
>  'close' to make this work properly. (the power gamer in
> me sees
> using
>  this serenade to make the squishyness of a marshmallow
> be applied to
>  the sword attacking me - or the low melting point of
> water to be
>  applied to a metal gun firing at me).
>
>  (since ODP is on this forum) How close of a definition
> of the
>  characteristic do I need to make?
>
>  And finally, assuming that I can get a semi-permanent
> effect. Can I
>  use the same target item for multiple effects? I want
> the
> flexability
>  of a shadow for my shirt, but I also want to apply the
> 'anti-ripping'
>  nature of kevlar to make a lightweigth bullet proof
> shirt that's
> stylish.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/

Well, for those who are familiar with it, SecondLife could be used to
simulate an Immortal RPG experience.  Mostly the RPG parts, though
people who are good at building and scripting could make items to
represent Mystech, Serenades, and the like.  There's a large Furry
community, so finding Himsati avatars wouldn't be terribly difficult.
  The hardest part would be scraping together the money to buy our own
Immortal sim.

For those who haven't heard of SecondLife, http://secondlife.com/ will
give you pretty much all the answers.

You've raised a good question, and one that will truly be "answered" in the
Narrator's Guide (which by the way my wife's medical issues are finally
wrapped up and with the holidays out of the way and the new ISP and
webhosting in place I can get back to some real work on it).  But tonight I
will make clear the "Golden Rule" of Serenades. In summary:

"The universe does not like to have its natural order disturbed.  Using one
attention to purposely substitute for another will often result in the Aria
fighting back (raising target numbers beyond the norm) as the serenade is
being played; even without faith backing its resistance up."

So, if you used Khemia to give the door a fluid property, I would rule that
your effect level could reduce the BODY of the door in a Strength contest
for you to push through it (like going through a wall of jello).  If you
used Khemia to cause the door to fall apart, you just tried to substitute
Mimicry for the attention of Destruction and therefore it should actually be
harder to use the serenade on the door.

A door easily counts as a single "target".  If you tried to hit a house
you'd have to spend a little Immaculum to do an AOE (Area of Effect) to get
all the walls and the roof. (3rd Edition ruling obviously).

You do not have to touch both items, but they have to be handy, and nearby
enough to be in decent line of sight.  If the target is behind you and the
recipient in front of you, the serenade will have a little difficulty.  If
the marshmallow is on a table 20 yards away, it is going to count as a
rather small target and give you at least a light penalty based on
difficulty to see it among the other items on the table... And remember you
are going against both the marshmallow and the sword in order to transfer
the property (it's a multiple target serenade by design, hence the cost
factor of 5 in purchasing it).

In third Edition terms you can easily create your shirt so long as you have
the needed items/environment at hand.  In first Edition terms, increase the
complexity by one additional level for each property beyond the first you
wish to copy to the recipient object.

Rick Don
Designer - Immortal 3rd Edition
rickdon@...


________________________________

	 From: paragons@yahoogroups.com [mailto:paragons@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of jbeckmann_1999
	 Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 6:08 PM
	 To: paragons@yahoogroups.com
	 Subject: [immortal-l] Khemia



	 I'm curious about how to define the characteristic of the elements
	 being borrowed from one element to be placed in the other.

	 My example is a locked door and a glass of water. I want to take the
	 fluid motion of the water and apply it to the door, so the door will
	 just collapse and I can walk through.

	 If area is a concern, I would only go after the door knob to assume
	 that I could push open the door since the looking mechanism fell
apart.

	 Do I have to be able to touch both elements in order for Khemia to
	 work? The examples with fire seem to imply that I only need to be
	 'close' to make this work properly. (the power gamer in me sees
using
	 this serenade to make the squishyness of a marshmallow be applied to
	 the sword attacking me - or the low melting point of water to be
	 applied to a metal gun firing at me).

	 (since ODP is on this forum) How close of a definition of the
	 characteristic do I need to make?

	 And finally, assuming that I can get a semi-permanent effect. Can I
	 use the same target item for multiple effects? I want the
flexability
	 of a shadow for my shirt, but I also want to apply the
'anti-ripping'
	 nature of kevlar to make a lightweigth bullet proof shirt that's
stylish.

Personally, I think that one has to touch the elements whose properties
he wants to transfer, at least that´s the way we play this serenade in
my group. I would make a close definition of the ability you want to
transfer, otherwise this serenade can be too unbalancing for some
situations. Also, this serenade can be very stylish if you use it as a
kind of ritual. I mean, in essence, this is what alchemy always tried to
achieve (hence the name), so my players take some time to use it and I
think during combat there´s not enough time to use this (you would also
have to touch the bullet - kinda difficult, isn´t it?).
In the old first book of powers there was nothing written that
prohibited using this Serenade multiple times on the same object, so
according to that edition, I would say that there shouldn´t be a problem
with your t-shirt. With the new rules I´m not that firm, perhaps someone
else knows.

               André

jbeckmann_1999 schrieb:

> I'm curious about how to define the characteristic of the elements
> being borrowed from one element to be placed in the other.
>
> My example is a locked door and a glass of water. I want to take the
> fluid motion of the water and apply it to the door, so the door will
> just collapse and I can walk through.
>
> If area is a concern, I would only go after the door knob to assume
> that I could push open the door since the looking mechanism fell apart.
>
> Do I have to be able to touch both elements in order for Khemia to
> work? The examples with fire seem to imply that I only need to be
> 'close' to make this work properly. (the power gamer in me sees using
> this serenade to make the squishyness of a marshmallow be applied to
> the sword attacking me - or the low melting point of water to be
> applied to a metal gun firing at me).
>
> (since ODP is on this forum) How close of a definition of the
> characteristic do I need to make?
>
> And finally, assuming that I can get a semi-permanent effect. Can I
> use the same target item for multiple effects? I want the flexability
> of a shadow for my shirt, but I also want to apply the 'anti-ripping'
> nature of kevlar to make a lightweigth bullet proof shirt that's stylish.
>
>

I'm curious about how to define the characteristic of the elements
being borrowed from one element to be placed in the other.

My example is a locked door and a glass of water. I want to take the
fluid motion of the water and apply it to the door, so the door will
just collapse and I can walk through.

If area is a concern, I would only go after the door knob to assume
that I could push open the door since the looking mechanism fell apart.


Do I have to be able to touch both elements in order for Khemia to
work?  The examples with fire seem to imply that I only need to be
'close' to make this work properly. (the power gamer in me sees using
this serenade to make the squishyness of a marshmallow be applied to
the sword attacking me - or the low melting point of water to be
applied to a metal gun firing at me).

(since ODP is on this forum) How close of a definition of the
characteristic do I need to make?

And finally, assuming that I can get a semi-permanent effect. Can I
use the same target item for multiple effects?  I want the flexability
of a shadow for my shirt, but I also want to apply the 'anti-ripping'
nature of kevlar to make a lightweigth bullet proof shirt that's stylish.

Greetings all,

I guess as we are comparing and constrasting notes, I thought that I would
chip in at this point.

My campaign so far has mainly set in London and the surrounding areas. This
is partly because of the fact I live just outside of the City, partly
because of the diversity of cultures present here, and lastly for the
historical significance of London to the background of the game, 1666 and
all that. Although, that said the group did end up in Holland and Paris
after a small skirmish on a ship in the North Sea. There has been a brief
trip to Atlantis for a couple of the more curious players.

For various reasons, I didn't see London as being under the control of any
one Tribe. I felt that it would be quite possible, due to its size and
cosmopolitian nature, that most, if not all the Tribes have some presence in
the City and the surrounding districts. Thus I gave a free hand as to which
Tribes characters came from.

However, I did see that there would have to be a need for some sort of
council overseeing Immortal activity,
settling disputes and coordinating various groups against attack from Droves
and the like. So I came up with the idea of a ruling triumvirate, with each
member coming from a different Tribe and be of a different Calling. At the
time of writing, the Triumvirate consists of a member from Tribe Morrigan,
Tribe Magdalen and Tribe Eremite.

As to where the Triumvirate would be based, I discovered a place quite by
chance and assume that it would be a location that is unfamiliar to many.
Its name, and I kid you not, is 'Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese', a pub located in
Fleet Street. The current building dates from 1667, rebuilt after being
destroyed in the Great Fire. It was built on the site where various taverns
and guest houses have been situated. The earliest incarnation on this site
is a guest house of a13th century Carmelite Monastry, and the current pub's
vaulted cellars are believed to date from that building. The building has a
dark wooden interior and is a warren of narrow corridors and staircases,
leading to numerous bars and restaurants. There are that many that even the
regulars get confused. Of particular interest to me was the narrow stairway
down to the cellar bars and the vaults. I could quite easily see how perhaps
one of these vaults could quite easily lead to a mantle. It would account
why
there had been a building on the site from so long and why it kept getting
rebuilt, to maintain access with the manse. It allows the players a
convienent point to meet or contact other immortals and keep abreast of
events.

Theme:

The War at this stage does not have a direct effect on the Players. While
there are Droves around, but not so obvious or concentrated to be a constant
threat to the group, there have been a few encounters with the Shadowen and
Drove Mut. Perhaps of more of a threat to the group thus far is the
Apocrypha who I see as having a great amount of influence through various
institutions in the U.K.

Perhaps one of the main themes relates to an old 1st Ed Campaign I once
played in and enjoyed immensely, my current game certainly has echoes of
that original game and deals with a few loose ends. The group has acquired a
patron who has survived the rigours of the Great Betrayal and is generally
regarded as a loose cannon by many of those in immortal society and his own
Tribe. He has some unfinished business to take care of, and as to what it is
he hasn't yet said.

I guess another theme is how the group are still exploring what it means to
be immortal and are still generally living in the rush of their extra
abilities, and have began to exploit the advantages these new abilities give
them plus discovering one or two weaknesses along the way. They have yet to
learn the fact they also have certain responsibilities especially regarding
humanity. They have drawn unwanted attention through being careless and
greedy, although not to the point where it has become critical as they have
generally cleaned up the problems before the situations have become too
dangerous.

Analysis:

I guess the main thing is that the majority of the players that began the
game have stayed and that they are happy to continue playing. It is also
means I am happy to continued running it.

Perhaps the most annoying thing about 3rd Ed. is the gaps where things are
to be cover in the Narrator's guide, which seems to be now slowly coming
into being. This does mean there had to be quite a number of ad hoc rules,
decisions and guesswork based on what has already been published, both from
1st & 3rd editons.


Anyway, that is enough from me for now.

Jason Pickering
AKA Cornelius, Harlequin of Tribe Phoenix.

Okay, since it's been brought up:

1) Does your campaign revolve around a fixed or traveling setting?
2) Urban or wilderness?
3) How often does the scenery deviate from the norm for the campaign?

Theme:
1) What is the central 'theme' of your game?
2) If a new player wandered in, would there be room for them to
fulfil their goals?
3) Does the war against the Droves play a central role, or is the
War part of the backdrop?
4) Again, how often does your campaign vary from the expected?

My campaign:
Setting is mostly the urban area of Houston, with minor 'side treks'
over the world.  When a character 'settles' elsewhere, they leave
the focus of the campaign; more time and effort is spent on the 'in
focus' characters.  In other words, if all characters move to
Seattle (or a majority), the campaign focus moves with them.
Otherwise, it's not worth my effort to run eight different stories
just because the characters go skittering off to their favorite
settings (some of which were originally meant as one-shot backdrops).

Theme:
I bring the War to the near background.  Players aren't attacked by
Droves on a nightly basis, but if they want to get into a fight,
there are plenty around.  The sewers, in particular, are a stage of
fierce warfare between 'gangs' of monsters and Tribe Peri.  Because
there are only two dozen or so total immortals in the setting, a
great deal of impact is caused by the player's goals.  Although I
try to bring roleplay into the game, my players regard it more as
solving a puzzle to get the NPCs to do things for them.  (And to
weasel out of the numerous debts they accumulate doing so.)

Analysis:
My players keep coming back, complaining constantly that things just
aren't easy for them.  This tells me that 'kill things and take
their stuff' games have them expecting a spiral of increasing
challenge and ability.  However, the players keep showing up, so I
must be doing something right.

Anyway, I hear a meal softly calling my name.  I'm going to answer
the call and hope nothing blood-sucking jumps out of the
refrigerator at me.

Mike Kochis
AKA Python the Lesser

Allright, I've been lurking on this list for a while now but this thread
compells me to throw my two cents in.

While I'm yet unpublished, I've been working on my own contemporary world
setting over the past couple of years, and I have to say that when I'm
considering adding a new element to things or wondering how things are going to
play out, I consider how I would do it if I was creating an MMORPG.

While I disagree on the point of City of Heroes being an amaising MMO.  (In my
opinion it doesn't capture the feel of a comic book hero setting at all, though
the character generation is the best I've encountered so far.)  I also disagree
to the point that the serenades would end up being static and predictable. 
Immortal's serenades were designed to be subtle in their effects but had
permutations beyond the effect.  If the world were programmed well enough to
emulate those permutations, you would eliminate the campy feel that traditional
role-players dread in modern computer games.

Now my question is, if Immortal were designed to be an MMORPG, how would it be
set up world-setting-wise?  I honestly don't think it could be done, MMO's by
there very nature have to be static settings with a steady timeline.  The fun I
had when I played immortal, was the globe-trotting, and moving amongst the
mortals unnoticed as I unlocked my past and tried to rationalise the past
decisions I made.  Can an MMO do this?

If one of you could throw a plausable setting on the table that would both work
as an MMO and encompass most of what Immortal is, then I'd be glad to hear it.

Swordancer

When I initially posted the thought of an IMMORTAL MMORPG, it really was
only that.  I didn't expect any kind of comment at all about it, actually.
But I must confess to disagree on a few points here.  One particular game I
play would very MUCH so lend itself to the IMMORTAL milieu both in graphic
and sound AS WELL as play style capability.  In my opinion, that is.

The story elements are VERY important and and quite prevalent.  PLayers are
REGULARLY talking about the story and its progression far more than anything
else I have encountered.  As well, the personal touch of EXTREME
customization is VERY present, if not necessary, and game play is varied
from, yes, your typical fighter and magic using classes, but also other
areas that allow a player to utilize their abilities to creative ends.  Add
to this the ability of the players to actually speak to each other via
headset-voice communication, and you quite literally have a game that
reaches all cultures ands parts of the world.  I play regularly with folks
in Canada, Australia, and one in Japan.  Various servers are, unofficially,
dedicated to differing gameplay styles ranging from just "Get in there and
beat the level" to "Playing with us means you play and communicate in
character."  I think the ability to combine these kinds of elements WOULD
make IMMORTAL a simplay amazing MMORPG.  There are already a number of games
that approximate the gameplay concepts in IMMORTAL and I genuinly think that
it would be like no other one out there if for no other reason than the
sheer quality and intensity of its storyline.

The main thing about IMMORTAL, aside form the play (which I love) IS the
STORY and the setting of the game.  The MMORPG that I am referring to as a
reference is the game City of Heroes as it has EVERY concieveable genre of
setting in it and it the ability to customize personal characters goes
beyond most every other MMORPG out there and is one of the single most
important aspects of the game.  If you have NOT played this game and only
played or seen a game such as World of Warcraft, then I wonder if you really
know what CoH is actually capable of.  I was talking about this the other
night with some friends of mine that play IMMORTAL and CoH as well and we
all agreed.  Then again, this IS only MY opinion.  I think that based on
what I have seen capable in PC gaming of this type, IMMORTAL would MORE than
lend itself to the genre.

And Ithink thats really I wanted to say about it.  Not a suggestion.  A
WISH, no DOUBT!  But MERELY a thought and nothing more.





>From: Michael Kochis <rhishisikk@...>
>Reply-To: paragons@yahoogroups.com
>To: paragons@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [immortal-l] Personal Touch
>Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 07:25:05 -0800 (PST)
>
>   Good point on the personal touch.  It would be lost on the MMORPG.  As
>for things becoming just 'spells' and 'feats', we can avoid that by
>avoiding programmer laziness.  People don't want to code for everything
>because it takes a lot of work.  The MMORPG 'standard' is to code for hack
>and slash (and maybe stealth missions), and sit back letting the monthly
>profits roll in; a standard I intend to utterly ignore.
>
>   But again, not going forward with this project alone.  So tabletop
>Immortal isn't about to go out of style. :)  Like I said, this is the sort
>of project you start in one year and finish in another - quite possibly in
>different decades.
>
>
>---------------------------------
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>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Good point on the personal touch.  It would be lost on the MMORPG.  As for
things becoming just 'spells' and 'feats', we can avoid that by avoiding
programmer laziness.  People don't want to code for everything because it takes
a lot of work.  The MMORPG 'standard' is to code for hack and slash (and maybe
stealth missions), and sit back letting the monthly profits roll in; a standard
I intend to utterly ignore.

   But again, not going forward with this project alone.  So tabletop Immortal
isn't about to go out of style. :)  Like I said, this is the sort of project you
start in one year and finish in another - quite possibly in different decades.


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<blink, blink, blink>

   good thought, man.  damn good thought, about the MMORPG.  hate those things
myself..freakin' waste of time, IMHO...but i gots friends who dig 'em, so it's
all good.

   i couldn't see immortal bein' captured on any computer game...hell, who the
freak am i kiddin....i still hate 2nd and 3rd edition immortal...stuck in 1st
edition with all the beautiful rules and complexities...sigh.....mah point,
yo...is this...

   computer games are awesome, in their own right.  immortal tends to be more of
a personal roleplaying experience with complex rules which allows for creative
usage (ever ember a tornado's green as an attack or maybe gave a newborn baby
the nature doom as a practical joke?) which no other game system ever, ever,
ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever had before or since. i got into
it at gencon a few years back by some bloke who convinced me that i, and my
group, should play ourselves as awakening immortals. hell, it was a good time.

   when i imagine immortal as a computer game, it loses the complexity and
creativity. the seranades become mere spells. talents will be nuttin' more than
3rd edition feats (f! 3rd edition). everything good about immortal, for me,
disappears......

   then again, i'm a depressing guy :) what the heck do i know? if you think it
could work, then there should be a way to get it goin, right?

ALLEN FEEMAN <thegreenbear@...> wrote:
           It really was just a thought that crossed my mind. I just recently
began to
play my first MMORPG and just thought the story and setting of IMMORTAL
would make a good one. Dats all.

>From: Michael Kochis <rhishisikk@...>
>Reply-To: paragons@yahoogroups.com
>To: paragons@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [immortal-l] Invisible War MMORPG
>Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Allen,
>
> Not to be a downer, but you do realize that said project would take
>about three years, not counting all the adventures and such?
>
> I could (If I wanted) fill pages with what needs to be there for classes
>other than Slayer and Keeper to feel fulfilled. It's a Titanic project -
>and a good idea.
>
> I don't think we have the resources to bring that idea into reality.
>I'm a decent programmer (not guru level, but decent). Where I lack are:
> 1) login procedures
> 2) MMORPG elements
> 3) computer graphics
> 4) sound effects
> Of course, I'm eager to learn. It's something to work on in my (haha)
>spare time.
>
> Mike Kochis
> AKA Python the Lesser, Protean Slayer
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone call
>rates.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It really was just a thought that crossed my mind.  I just recently began to
play my first MMORPG and just thought the story and setting of IMMORTAL
would make a good one.  Dats all.


>From: Michael Kochis <rhishisikk@...>
>Reply-To: paragons@yahoogroups.com
>To: paragons@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [immortal-l] Invisible War MMORPG
>Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Allen,
>
>   Not to be a downer, but you do realize that said project would take
>about three years, not counting all the adventures and such?
>
>   I could (If I wanted) fill pages with what needs to be there for classes
>other than Slayer and Keeper to feel fulfilled.  It's a Titanic project -
>and a good idea.
>
>   I don't think we have the resources to bring that idea into reality.
>I'm a decent programmer (not guru level, but decent).  Where I lack are:
>   1) login procedures
>   2) MMORPG elements
>   3) computer graphics
>   4) sound effects
>   Of course, I'm eager to learn.  It's something to work on in my (haha)
>spare time.
>
>   Mike Kochis
>   AKA Python the Lesser, Protean Slayer
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap  PC-to-Phone call
>rates.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.  Get a free 90-day trial!
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.win\
dowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail

Allen,

   Not to be a downer, but you do realize that said project would take about
three years, not counting all the adventures and such?

   I could (If I wanted) fill pages with what needs to be there for classes other
than Slayer and Keeper to feel fulfilled.  It's a Titanic project - and a good
idea.

   I don't think we have the resources to bring that idea into reality.  I'm a
decent programmer (not guru level, but decent).  Where I lack are:
   1) login procedures
   2) MMORPG elements
   3) computer graphics
   4) sound effects
   Of course, I'm eager to learn.  It's something to work on in my (haha) spare
time.

   Mike Kochis
   AKA Python the Lesser, Protean Slayer


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Beena fan and player of the game since its release.  Also a big video gamer
as well.  HAve been thinking and it just crossed my mind...merely a thought
and nothing more.

IMMORTAL would make a freaking fantastic MMORPG.

Thats it.  Nothing more.  We now return you to your regularly scheduled
programming.

GreenBear

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Rick,

   First, hope your wife is well, and don't be stingy with the time you spend
with her.

   Second: Enclosed file from 'fluff' portion.  Was this roughly what you wanted?
I tried to remove 'world' and 'theme' questions, and focus on hard rules. 
Failed, but tried.

   Mike


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

(OOC for IC List.)

I'm offline until this weekend, wife has to go into hospital for surgery.
Will get all IC game posts caught up and will answer any questions posted to
the non-game list on Saturday or Sunday.

Rick


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What questions do you have about the game?  What areas are unclear/murky?  What
are you having to guess at and/or fill in?

   Lesser Python, Protean Slayer


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Well, so it's not just a sense.  What I want is to continue to provide a
forum where at any time people are free to:
1) Ask questions
2) Get answers
3) Give ideas
4) Discuss the system, the gameworld, et al.
5) Merits and flaws of immortal (hey, if I can't take some criticism...)
6) Anything else that comes up
7) Get feedback on stuff that is being worked on

I think that about covers it for me.

Rick


   _____

From: paragons@yahoogroups.com [mailto:paragons@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of rhishisikk
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 6:31 PM
To: paragons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [immortal-l] Purpose of EMAIL list



Guys,

I have a sense of what Rick wants out of this EMAIL list. I know what
I want out of it. What does everyone else want from the list?

Mike Kochis
AKA Python the Lesser, Protean Slayer







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In paragons@yahoogroups.com, "rhishisikk" <rhishisikk@...> wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> I have a sense of what Rick wants out of this EMAIL list.  I know what
> I want out of it.  What does everyone else want from the list?
>
> Mike Kochis
> AKA Python the Lesser, Protean Slayer
>

As a complete newbie to this game, I am hoping to understand how
things work better and read people's ideas.

-Justin

Guys,

I have a sense of what Rick wants out of this EMAIL list.  I know what
I want out of it.  What does everyone else want from the list?

Mike Kochis
AKA Python the Lesser, Protean Slayer

I'm thinking more along the lines of rules conflicts, but there are also
still come conflicts resident from 1st/2nd Edition that people will have
questions about...  Everything written in Chapters 1 - 4 of the Player's
Guide is written from the persective of a singular individual of course; but
those views are fairly close to how most immortals tend to think of such
subjects in this day and age.  Of course there are things the player's
aren't told (since the chapters do state they are a bit of a basic primer
after all) that the Narrator's Guide should clear up.  When I release the
rough for Chapter 2, I'm waiting for one question to come up concerning the
Dominions and bringing inhabitants to Earth.  I have an answer for that and
I'm toying putting it in the chapter now or holding off till later...

Rick


> 1b. Reasons for conflict between PG and NG
>     Posted by: "Michael Kochis" rhishisikk@... rhishisikk
>     Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:58 am (PDT)
>
> Author, below, refers to the unnamed immortal who 'wrote' the
> PG information.  Changes in the rules are just that; rules
> changes.  (Reasons swiped from Amber Diceless)
>
>   1) The author may have been told wrong, and is honestly
> relaying what he knows.
>
>   2) The author's judgement is tempered by his poetic
> temperment, hope, and desire for things to be better than
> they actually are.
>
>   3) The author may have drawn improper conclusions, either
> from correct data, or incorrect data.
>
>   4) The author might not know, and is guessing to preserve
> his credibility.
>
>   5) The author is deliberately lying.
>       a) to protect himself or others
>       b) to attack others
>       c) to protect his Tribe or Calling
>       d) to preserve alliances between the Twelve Tribes
>       e) because he'd be ridiculed or outcast if he
> contradicts the 'known' truth
>       f) because the truth is rude or improper
>       g) his friendly neighborhood Scourge (or other credible
> figure) told him he'd die or worse if the truth in a certain
> matter came out
>       h) he swore himself to secrecy in the matter
>       i) as some part of the Stratagem (which was still
> active when he wrote his book), possibly to teach his
> students to trust no-one.
>
>   But the bottom line is, for my campaigns, there are rules
> and fluff.  When the two collide, the fluff is usually what
> gives way.  Usually.  But bad rules are often found washed up
> on the riverbank of my campaigns, also.
>
>   Mike Kochis
>   AKA Python the Lesser, Protean Slayer
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>  All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get
> things done faster.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (2)
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> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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>
>
>
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> ----------
>
>

Author, below, refers to the unnamed immortal who 'wrote' the PG information. 
Changes in the rules are just that; rules changes.  (Reasons swiped from Amber
Diceless)

   1) The author may have been told wrong, and is honestly relaying what he
knows.

   2) The author's judgement is tempered by his poetic temperment, hope, and
desire for things to be better than they actually are.

   3) The author may have drawn improper conclusions, either from correct data,
or incorrect data.

   4) The author might not know, and is guessing to preserve his credibility.

   5) The author is deliberately lying.
       a) to protect himself or others
       b) to attack others
       c) to protect his Tribe or Calling
       d) to preserve alliances between the Twelve Tribes
       e) because he'd be ridiculed or outcast if he contradicts the 'known'
truth
       f) because the truth is rude or improper
       g) his friendly neighborhood Scourge (or other credible figure) told him
he'd die or worse if the truth in a certain matter came out
       h) he swore himself to secrecy in the matter
       i) as some part of the Stratagem (which was still active when he wrote his
book), possibly to teach his students to trust no-one.

   But the bottom line is, for my campaigns, there are rules and fluff.  When the
two collide, the fluff is usually what gives way.  Usually.  But bad rules are
often found washed up on the riverbank of my campaigns, also.

   Mike Kochis
   AKA Python the Lesser, Protean Slayer




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So, anyone get a chance to read over Chapter 1 rought draft and mull over
the new information to add to what you know from the Player's Guide?
Anybody got any thoughts?  I'm going to probably post the rough for Chapter
2 in a week or so, so I'd love to here thoughts on Chapter 1 as they'll also
help the person assisting me with reading over the Player's Guide and the
rough drafts in looking for things that may seem to conflict (so I can setup
a place top post explanations on the website, or fix in the book), or
information that might be viable to add for more knowledge.

Rick Don
Designer - Immortal 3rd Edition
rickdon@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Woohoo!!

Thank goodness!

Welcome to the new list, same rules as always apply!  Hope you enjoy
the preview of the rough draft of the Narrator's Guide Chapter 1!!!

Rick