OOC Seminar: Magic on AF
Who: Everyone
Where: OOC Meeting Room
When: February 9th, 2001

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Sirius wonders if Pixie's shortdesc stands for deatheater.

Pixie says, "Which would you prefer?"

Sirius says "Well, if you are, maybe you can tell me where Peter and Malfoy
are."

Pixie says, "Okay. So, recently, we've had some questions from people about
how magic works on the game. Not OOCly, but ICly. I want to state up front
that these are the interpretations that we have made from what is in the
books. JKR may say something later that wholly contradicts us, and there are
other interpretations that are equally valid. However, save those for fanfic
or another game -- we've had to make decisons about how magic works in the
AF version of the HP world, just to be able to maintain some internal
consistency with classes and spells."

Pixie says, "There are a number of different branches of magic. At their most
basic levels, these branches are completely separate from one another, and
don't appear to have much overlap. But it's only possible to progress to a
certain level without it becoming necessary to pull in building blocks from
other subjects. So at the more advanced levels, Charms is going to pull
knowledge from Transfiguration or Potions, Herbology will be greatly helped
because you know a particular Charm, and so forth."

Pixie says, "The main branches of magic studied at Hogwarts (and Poudlard)
are: Transfiguration, Charms, Potions, Herbology/Care of Magical Creatures,
Divination, Arithmancy, and Ancient Runes. Another branch of magic not
taught at Hogwarts is Occlumency/Legilimency. And though other subjects are
taught at Hogwarts, they aren't actual branches in themselves, but rather
are made up of bits and pieces from the others."

Pixie says, "So, any questions so far? Have I bored you all yet?"

Gilbert is just listening quietly. :)

Celestina is too. :)

Valentine says "Why is Arithmancy considered a separate branch from
Divination?"

Gilbert thinks it's the difference in approach, really.

Pixie says, "Because over time it has become specialised and distant from
Divination, enough to warrant calling it a different branch. In the same
manner as Computer Science originally being an offshoot of Mathematics, but
now its own subject."

Valentine ahs.

Pixie says, "For several of the topics I mentioned above, we have some very
nice +info entries written up by the players of the professors (or former
professors) of those subjects. For Arithmancy, check out +bbread 29/4 and
+bbread 29/5. For Transfiguration, +bbread 29/9. For Potions, +bbread 29/15.
For Divination, see +info divination. For those reasons, I don't intend to
go into big detail on those subjects, unless there are questions on them
from people."

Pixie says, "Before I start in on the various subjects, let me go over a few
of the main decisions that we've made here on AF regarding magic --
decisions that apply across the board. (Other admins, feel free to jump in
here if I forget something. :))"

Pixie says, "1 - You need a wand to do magic on your own. There are a -few-
exceptions to this rule (Animagi can change back and forth without a wand,
for instance), but in general, a wizard without his wand is severely
crippled. There has been some confusion on this point due to the portrayal
of magic in the PoA movie. While we like the organic nature of the magic in
that movie, everything in the books has required a wand, and it's just
easier if we keep that limiting factor intact."

Pixie says, "2 - There are two basic classifications of magical items: Items
which run under their own magical power, and items which tap the user's
magical power. Examples of the former kind would be the keys that disappear
when you try to use them, Arthur's car, dungbombs. Examples of the latter
would be brooms or floo powder. Muggles and squibs -can- use the former, but
the latter, for obvious reasons, will not work for them."

Pixie says, "3 - Magic is hard to learn and requires lots of practice to get
it right. This seems like an obvious conclusion -- after all, wizards go to
school for 7 years, and even then don't know all the magic there is -- but
it can be hard to remember when it seems like all you need to do is copy a
phrase and wave your wand correctly."

Pixie says, "Okay. That's the basic tenets we're coming from. So, here I'll
take requests: is there a branch of magic that people would like to talk
about first?"

Bradford says "How about the wand preresiquite? It should be noted that the
wands are like a focus for the wizard. A channeler, an outlet. It actively
directs the magic into the forms desired by the spell using the wizard as
it's magic source. Which can explain exactly how a witch or wizard is next
to totally helpless without a wand."

Bradford says "If I am repeating something already stated, do let me know."

Pixie says, "Is there anyone else confused about why a wand is necessary? I
was actually asking if people wanted to discuss any of the major branches of
magic that I'd listed earlier."

Gilbert says "I'm not confused about it, but just so we know - nobody should
be doing spells without a wand on the game, even if their character is old
or Dumbledore leet?"

Bradford says "Some spells can be managed. Like if you are making a potion.
Though it might be stated that many positions need a wand to be made. But
now that this is mentioned.. What about Charms?"

Celestina points at Bradford. "Ditto to charms. I've been doing my best to
read all the newsfiles and as many logs as I can since coming here, and I've
been wondering where I should personally draw the line,
ability-wise...whether I can just say 'Celestina gestures with her wand and
does /so/,' without having an actual spell for it or without having had
anything like it mentioned in the books. For instance, last night in RP I
had Celestina light her porch light with her wand. Sorry if I don't make
perfect sense...long day." :)

Pixie says, "Right, Gilbert. A wand isn't necessarily just a focus, either. It
works in harmony with the witch or wizard on a deeper level than that,
otherwise it wouldn't be so important that you get just the right wand for
you. At the very least, it serves to amplify the magic so that it can be
used."

Echidna says "I'm not understanding what you're asking, Bradford."

Bradford points back at Celestina. "She formed my question better."

Celestina whoos, go me. ;)

Echidna says "Well, that happens sometimes Celestina. The way that you did it
would be the optimum way. A logical spell that she should be able to do, but
without inventing a random incantation for it."

Celestina nods. "Okay, that helps." :)

Sirius says "I think when you're interacting with an object, it's different
too? Like maybe the lights were just waiting for you to direct your
attention to them. Or even say 'Gesundheit'. You know, like the Map needed a
wand and password, but not necessarily a specific spell."

Pixie nods. "Basic household items you can probably assume will fall into the
class of objects that operate under their own magical power. Your small
pre-Hogwarts children need to be able to turn on a lamp too. So you can turn
it on and off with a wand-based spell, but also another method."

Celestina nods at Sirius and Pixie. "That's really good to remember."

Pixie says, "In general, we ask the people don't make up spells on the fly if
you can help it. But there are certain actions that are just so very basic
that we realize you're going to end up having to do them in a scene -- cook,
turn on lights, run the bath. So you can just pose them being done, like
Echi said, without making up an incantation."

Pixie says, "Now, Charms in general, from what we've seen in the book, is a
really really broad subject, as befits a basic branch of magic. Curses and
hexes we would also say fall under the heading of 'Charms', because their
mechanics seem identical -- they're Charms with a negative intention."

Pixie says, "Your basic Charm appears to be a spell with a specific, singular
intent: banish this object, summon this object, levitate this object, swell
this object, and so forth. They have the same kind of structure: an
incantation with a wand movement, and the spell is cast."

Gilbert has a question.

Pixie says, "Gilbert?"

Gilbert says "We know that in Transfiguration, keeping the right mental image
is important when turning something from one thing to another. Is this
mental image as important with Charms? It would seem so.. Like when
banishing, your thoughts fine tune how far/hard etc the object goes."

Cameron has a question after Gilberts is answered.

Pixie says, "To some extent, your mental image is going to be important in
every magical attempt. If you're completely distracted, your spell is
probably not going to be very successful. It would depend on the charm how
much control you could have, but yes, your idea of how the spell is going to
end up has an impact on how it actually -does- turn out."

Pixie says, "Cameron?"

August has a big question.

Cameron says "Since we moved to Transfiguration. What would stop a witch or
wizard from changing rocks into Galleons? Would shopkeepers have a way of
identifying theme as counterfeit?"

Pixie says, "Except in very specific circumstances, transfiguration isn't
permanent. Things will change back to what they were before after a while.
This is similar to conjuration, which is also temporary. So yes, you can try
to counterfeit, but like in the muggle world, this is illegal. Eventually
you would get caught. And only a fool ticks off a group of creatures that
has trolls under their influence. :)"

Pixie says, "August?"

August gets shoved aside by his Puppet Master. "Hello, everyone. I play the
part of Augustus Fringe. *clears throat* My question runs along the same
lines as Gilbert's. It's about emotion and how much it affects spellcasting,
if at all. I added an emotional element to the casting of Everte Statum (the
spell cast by Harry on Draco that sends him into a topsy-turvy Matrix spin
during Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (the film)). Nobody seemed to
object. Furthermore, it's said that in order to cast one of the
Unforgiveable Curses (line spoken by Bellatrix in Book 5) you have to REALLY
want to hurt the person, or kill them, or whatever (the killing part I'm
extrapolating from Book 5's information)." August, meanwhile, sits in the
corner crumpled up like a marionette. "Furthermore, we've observed that
Seamus' backfiring spells always seem to explode in the films (and, to a
lesser degree, it's implied in the books that he gets sooty over his
miscalculations) but Ron's backfiring spells do something totally different.
So, my question is this: how much does emotion play into spellcasting in
everyday use? Is control of one's emotions an essential part of it, or is
passion for a particular type of magic essential to its success? Is it a
Jedi/Sith kind of thing? Does it impact how your spellcasting goes? Does it
affect the arenas of magic in which you may particulate successfully?
Furthermore, how does this tie in to eventually falling in with Dark Arts if
there's a connection there at all?"

Chimaera says "It's an OOC room, August. No need to mp/h. :)"

August says "It's force of habit."

Sirius says "Not a very good habit. Spammy. :)"

August says "I never type 'say' blah or anything. I almost never type 'pose'
or even ;. Usually, I @emit everything and mp/h the rest. :D"

Pixie says, "Intent and will are established in the books as important factors
in the success and impact of a spell. As I just said, if you're scattered
and distracted, you're going to have trouble focusing enough to do a
complicated spell -- most wizards seem to stick to a pretty small arsenal of
basic spells when they get into a fight, and for good reason: you want
something you know will work every time, even when you're rattled and angry
and upset. And there are some spells that require your will to be
overwhelming: Avada Kedavra, for instance."

August nods and figured on that much. Thanks for the confirmation. What about
the stuff at the end of my admittedly huge question?

Pixie says, "I'm not quite sure how this doesn't answer that as well? This
isn't the Star Wars universe. You don't join the dark side of the force and
become a Sith; a Dark Wizard is still just as adept at all of the regular
spells as everyone else, they just also happen to use spells that are
illegal and/or have negative intent. So maybe you could rephrase if part of
it's still not clear?"

Cameron says "I do see how August made the comparison though. In the SWU, the
more a Jedi uses the dark side, the more he is corrupted. So would using
more dark arts spell, slowly start to corrupt the wizard or witch?"

August nods, shakes his head. Not what I meant about the Sith analogy. What I
meant about that was that Jedi, for example, are DIScouraged in teaching
from relying on emotions to make power work, believing that inner
tranquility is the key to successful "Force" use. Sith are ENcouraged to use
emotions, believing that using the power of raw emotion and passion improves
the power of their "Force" use. Basically, "Force" use could be exchanged
here for spells. Are our teachers telling us to be calm and serene,
passionately focused, a mixture of both, none of the above? That's what I
meant about how it ties in with magic.

August says "Valid question, Cameron, but not where I was going with it. I do
wonder, too, if people who 'instruct' others in Dark Arts are saying 'Use
your feelings!' or 'A clear mind and an indomitable will are the keys to
success!' or some combination of both or neither or...?""

Pixie ahs. "To Cameron: yes and no. Witches and wizards are still humans. If
you revel in blood, you're probably going to eventually stop valuing the
lives of others and indulge in some pretty anti-social behavior. To August:
there is nothing negative here about emotions used in magic. Because, as
we've seen, channelling your will and emotion into a spell can make it more
powerful, and the wizards know that quite well. The only danger is trying to
pour too much if yourself into the spell and using up all your energy and
passing out."

August says "Ah! Pixie, you JUST answered a big part of what I wanted to know,
right there."

August says "So, it could be, say, considered a weakness in your spellcasting:
"He casts powerful spells. The problem is that he puts so much force into a
simple Flippendo that he's exhausted himself after a few tries.""

Ron says "Well, don't forget spells like Expecto Patronus. You're /supposed/
to use emotions for those."

Ron says "Well, I guess that's sort of tangential. :)"

Cameron doesn't know what tangential means.

Pixie says, "Well, basically, August. But I don't think it's something that
would be very usual. The more you practice, the less you have to think about
a spell to do it, the less likely you are to use extra magic casting it."

Pixie | tan7gen7tial P Pronunciation Key (tn-jnshl) also tan7gen7tal (-jntl)
Pixie | adj.
Pixie | Of, relating to, or moving along or in the direction of a tangent.
Pixie | Merely touching or slightly connected.
Pixie | Only superficially relevant; divergent: a tangential remark.

Ron says "Thank you. :)"

Valentine says "But if you wanted to make it more powerful, wouldn't you still
have to pump the same amount of 'extra' energy into giving it that extra
boost anyways, regardless of how much you'd practiced?"

Cameron ohs.

Echidna says "Not necessarily. Not if all that energy really amounts to trying
too hard."

Pixie says, "There's a natural limit to how powerful some spells can get. If
something is applico'ed, it's applico'ed, you can't make it /more/ attached."

Tengu says "Plus if you put too much power in certain spells, they'd do more
than you wanted."

August says "Right. I already knew about that."

August says "Nooooooooooow we're getting into what I want to talk about in
this."

August says "It's like all those movies where you've got the kid psychic who's
practicing putting out fires or whatever, and then evil George C. Scott
shows up and suddenly the kid psychic sets the room on fire because of how
angry she is, etc."

August says "And you could certainly, I imagine, fizzle-out the spell by
putting so much poower into it."

Pixie says, "That's more likely what would happen, yes. If you're trying too
hard, you're more likely to fail altogether. Because usually if you're
pouring that much effort into it, you're doing it because you're anxious
that it will work at all."

Pixie says, "The rest of you all do feel free to speak up. :)"

August is done. My question is answered pretty well. Thanks, guys.

August adds to what Pixie said, "Or, you're a really, REALLY angry person."

August says "Right?"

Pixie says, "I do think that what Valentine said about the extra energy is a
point. Most people will have a certain habit that they fall into. Your
summoning spell will usually summong things at the same speed, your
banishings will tend to be banished the same distance, and so forth. Your
Apparation has the same volume. You'd need to concentrate and put out more
effort to change yourself from your normal patterns."

Pixie says, "I wasn't talking about people being angry, no. Being upset and
angry can make you more focused and single minded, or it can throw your
concentration to pieces. It depends."

August says "Right. That's what I wanted to know, Pixie, what you said right
there."

Pixie says, "Okay, so... any other questions? Anyone?"

Cameron says "How do you know, so you can roleplay accordingly, when a class
will be teaching you a certain spell?"

Pixie says, "That's a good question. And unfortunately, there's not really a
good answer for a lot of the classes. There are the books, which have a few
classes described in them -- you can see when in the year Harry learned a
particular spell in a particular year, and guess that you'll have learned it
at approximately the same time. For some of the classes, Arithmancy for one,
and a bit less detailed for Transfiguration, there are curriculum guides
(+bbread 29/5 and +bbread 29/9). For the others -- you can look at 'news
magic learning' and see the year a certain spell is taught, and try to
figure it out. If you're in doubt, you can ask one of the admins, or the
teacher for that class if they're on."

Pixie says, "We're hoping to get +info entries for the other classes, but it
mostly depends on when someone has the time to write one out. Let the
professors know if you'd like to see one. They can always use the motivation
of knowing people are interested."

Cameron nods. "Okay."

August has another question regarding magic.

Tengu says "It can also vary by professor. Particularly DADA."

Pixie says, "August?"

August says "Throughout the books, when convenient for the author (no offense
Ms. Rowling), magic is so prohibitive that a single spell cast at night
while everyone is asleep merits a letter and an owl and the arrival of
officials. There are whole departments dedicated to watching what everyone
casts, and how, and when. At the same time, we've got kids pulling wands on
eachother from Day 1 of the First Year. How are the kids taught about the
handling of a wand? We've basically got eleven-year-olds walking around with
the equivalent of a weapon of unimaginably destructive power, and they don't
seem prohibited from pointing it at eachother. or casting hexes on eachother
(not even in the books, when hexes are tossed around against Draco on the
Hogwarts Express) or teachers turning people into things and such."

Echidna says "I think the letters were sent when politically expedient. And
Fudge pulled strings to avoid some at other times."

August just means more along the lines of, how SHOULD we be viewing our wands
and treating them at Hogwarts, versus the reality, versus what the IC
reality is.

You say "That's not entirely the case here. There is an office at the Ministry
devoted to discouraging and working against unauthorized underage magic. But
they are not omniscient."

Pixie er, hang on.

Pixie wasn't quite finished typing. What Echi said was sort of true, but not
the official policy here.

Echidna says "Bad me. :)"

Pixie says, "That's not entirely the case here. There is an office at the
Ministry devoted to discouraging and working against unauthorized underage
magic. But they are not omniscient. The Ministry doesn't watch everyone all
the time. It's more hit and miss -- a roving eye, so it's a risk if you do
the magic, but you may not get caught. Children of wizarding families are
almost -never- brought up on these charges, because the Ministry can -not-
determine -who- did the magic that was cast. (Witness CoS, when Dobby got
Harry in trouble). So the Weasley twins spending all summer casting magic in
their bedroom doesn't cause a single blip on the Ministry's screen, because
the Weasleys are doing magic all the time in their house. But at a muggle
house, it's more obvious. And Harry is a special case as well, being a bit
of a celebrity. Hermione was doing spells at her house prior to book 1's
opening and didn't draw any attention."

Valentine also thinks that Harry might've been caught so many times because
they were keeping an extra-close watch on him anyways. Plus he was in a
muggle area, which is a double-fault.

Valentine graks. What she said.

Kalima giggles, "Well, is it at all expected that students should snitch on
one another? It seemed that isn't well respected."

Pixie says, "And August, I still don't really understand your question.
Wizards use magic all the time. It's part of their lives, and they don't
think twice about it. What are you asking?"

Tengu says "Casting spells of any sort in the corridors /is/ against the
rules. And Prefects can take points for it, etc."

August adds to Pixie that they also couldn't tell who did the Dark Mark...
only that it was someone nearby, and had to physically test the wand and
only then could just tell what the LAST spell cast was, sort of like a
ballistics powder test.

Valentine absently wonders what priori incantatem would do if the last spell
happened to be incendio.

August nods toward Kalima and really wants to know teachers' attitudes on
wand-threatening, official and otherwise.

Pixie thinks it would just show a little flame. It seems to sort of display
what the spell was.

Pixie ahs. "Officially, as Tengu said, magic in the corridors is against the
rules. But that is corridors only, and does not include classrooms, outside,
common rooms and dorms. Students are allowed to practice magic in those
locations. In fact, they have to, if they expect to pass their classes,
since there's no way they could master everything just in class. Professors
can use magic against recalicitrant students without censure -- within
reason. Students are expected to deal with most squabbles themselves; minor
hexes cast on another student is roughly the equivalent of pulling someone's
hair, and professors really just won't care very much. That doesn't mean you
might not get in trouble for it if someone tattles on you, but it depends on
the circumstances and isn't officially against the rules."

Kalima nods, understanding better.

Pixie says, "How the tattler is viewed will depend on your POV on the
incident, I'd say."

Tengu says "Most of the time a hex doesn't cause any sort of permanent damage.
It's just not the same as hauling off and punching someone in the face."

Pixie nods. Physical violence is going to be taken more seriously, especially
at the moment, because it has the stigma of being 'muggle'.

Pixie says, "Any other questions?"

Chimaera says "Most hexes are a pain in the butt, but will not require a trip
to the infirmary or do anything more than temporarily inconvenience and
possibly embarrass you. Leg locker, full body bind, the dancing hex...even
belching slugs wears off without any ill effects. Eventually. :)"

Tengu says "And some hexes can be reversed or removed by older students."

Paul says "Except the foul taste in the mouth, when it comes to the slugs? ;)"

Chimaera says "That;s what toothbrushes are for. :)"

Kalima is scared of the Riddikulus or Blow-up spells, herself.

Paul thought those were for eating, Chimmy. ;)

Valentine points a wand at his mouth. "Scourgify!"

Pixie laughs.

Cameron says "I don't know why they call them toothbrushes, they don't brush a
single tooth, they brush teeth."

Paul says "Teethbrushers?"

Chimaera snickers. And breathes fire at Paul. "/Chimmy/?"

Celestina loves old ads, and wants the words 'A Superior Dentifrice'
emblazoned on every tube of toothpaste again. ;D Okay, that was random.

Paul thankees for the fire. It's cold up here in Northern Scandinavia. ;)

Kalima says, "'Dentifrice' probably is the toothbrushing spell." :)

Celestina oohs at Kalima. That'd be cool. :D

Pixie laughs. "Okay... well, if there aren't any other questions, I'm going to
call it a wrap. People are always welcome to send in new spells and stuff.
Though we can't promise we won't start a discussion about them."

Kalima thanks for the discussion event.

Celestina says "Yes, thank you. :)"

Cameron follows suit. "Thanks."

You say "Thank you all for coming! They were good questions."

Paul thankees too. Even though I was only listening. ;)

Kalima even asked a question!