--- In hpmush-logs@yahoogroups.com, "jellyn7" <julie@c...> wrote:
--- In HP-Logs@y..., Phoenix <phoenix@s...> wrote:
Phoenix's RP Seminar: Angst and IC/OOC Knowledge
RL Date: 2/24/02


Darren kicks back in a big bean bag chair with a bottle of Pepsi
Twist and a
bag of popcorn.

Phoenix decides to use Hagrid as her perch, cos she can see everyone
but him
from up here (and some of him, too, wow).

Ginny made popcorn earlier today. :) I got a popcorn popper for my
birthday.
;) I'll share.

Nadine sits back against a far wall to watch the merriment.

Hagrid says "Just don't go making a nest up in my hair, Phoenix. :)"

Nadine giggles.

Nicodemus takes his sister's hand. ;P

Pierre looks around at all the people

Alexander flops into a beanbag and prepares to look as bored as he
does in
classes.

Nadine says "I thought it was getting to be Spring?"

Phoenix thought you liked things setting you on fire, Hagrid. "Anyway,
firstly, this is being logged for posterity, so if you miss
something at
first, you can read it on the website later. I have two topics I'd
like to
discuss. The first of them is Angst."

Nicodemus sits back at the far wall and afks to grab a coke.

Pierre sits on the floor

Talia sits down with a thump, and rests her head on the floor, trying
not to
be stood on.

Pierre sits by Talia

Rhys wonders if Rowling ever actually tried to drink pumpkin juice.

Winter sits on Nadine.

Nadine oofs.

Alexander says "I'm sure it tastes fine with a bit of sugar, and no
pulp. :)"

Nadine says "What exactly is Angst? I've heard the term, but I'm
still not
clear on it."

Phoenix smiles. "My handydandy dictionary reports that Angst is a
feeling of
anxiety or apprehension often accompanied by depression. Would
anyone care
to venture what they think that means in a game setting?"

Hagrid gasps. "The pulp is the best part, though!" And now he'll be
quiet and
listen. :)

Rhys says "It needs milk or cream and a lot of sugar, and spices. A
liquid
pumpkin pie ie what I think she had in mind."

Winter says "It's what you expect when you have a game filled with
mostly
pre-teens and teenagers."

Rhys raises a hand.

Hagrid raises a hand too.

Xavier says "Angst in MUSH is mainly in my experience, overacting and
over/reacting/ to a scene to needlessly draw attention to yourself."

Nadine ahs. "Primadonnas?"

Pierre coughs

Phoenix nods to what Xavier has to say. "That's essentially correct.
Angst is
taking the situations which are thrown at you and using them to
create
melodrama for your character and make things seem far worse (or
even far
better) than they really are."

Judith notes that angst is a form of "grandstanding" and being
maudlin to the
point of irritation for others. You can't be unhappy all the time.

Hagrid says "The attention-grabbing part is, anyone who ignores your
character's overdramatized plight makes themselves look bad. So
basically,
anyone who RPs a 'good' character is forced to take part in your
plot."

Rhys says "Someone who is that unhappy all the time would be noticed
by staff
and Spoken To."

Wren slips in quietly and plops down on her Big Red Pillow with a big
bowl of
Rainbow Sherbert.

Nadine ews. "That's rude."

Phoenix nods. "We, as an admin team, likewise do not encourage this
sort of
constant crisis mode, and have seen some characters (no names
mentioned, of
course) who are in that sort of behavior. Let's take a look at the
book
characters and see how they handle the bad stuff that happens to
them. Harry
is a fine example to look at here."

You say "His parents were violently killed, he occasionally has
nightmares
about them. He lives with his anti-wizarding relatives who treat him
extremely poorly. He has to take class with Snape (sufficient
torture for
anyone). He as all this Bad Stuff that happens to him... yet he
doesn't
wallow in depression. He works to overcome his situation. Now,
we're not
expecting everyone to be Harry (unless someone wants to app for
him ;), but
we're hoping that folks can start steering themselves away from
this sort of
'me me me, my life is so horrible' RP that we've been seeing in
some of the
logs and in some unpublished RP. Life is /not/ that horrible for
most kids
your chars' ages."

Phoenix smiles. "There are certainly some accident-prone characters
out there
(coughNevillecough), but for the most part, not every RP incident
needs to
end up in Madam Pomfrey's office. Your characters are allowed to be
happy
from time to time. Does anyone have any suggestions on RP
directions that
veer away from angst, yet still involve character development?"

Rhys says "Are there any less lethal sports in the wizarding world?"

Wren raises her hand slowly.

Phoenix smiles to Rhys. "There probably are, but Quidditch is the Big
Sport
that the canon mentions. Yes, Wren?"

Alexander says "No one's ever died of Quidditch at Hogwarts. So it's
not
'lethal' there anyway. :)"

Wren says "Well... I know from experience that a game that is a blast
to
roleplay is hide and go seek. It might not be a wizard-game, but if
there
are enough muggle-born kids who want to introduce it, we could get
a really
great game going in the castle."

Pierre laughs

Judith has never RP'd that, but it sounds like it would be a hoot.
Scavenger
hunts can also be fun.

Talia raises her hand.

Phoenix suggests that any ideas for 'other wizardly games', like how
we have
requests for new spells and stuff, all go to *plots before someone
has a go
at them. "Yes, Talia?"

Talia says "Well, I havn't RP'd this, but my brother suggested it,
that Truth
or Dare games worked well..."

Ginny raises her hand.

Rhys groans.

Wren chuckles.

Alexander imagines Slytherin Truth or Dare.. more like.. Lie or
Duel. :)

Phoenix grins. "The Dare section would have to adhere to game policy,
of
course. Yes, Ginny?"

Pierre smiles. "Truth or dare..."

Ginny says "Quidditch pick up games can be fun. I was involved in a 3
on 3
informal game the other day. You don't have to be on a team to RP a
pick up
game. Also, you can RP getting homework help from someone. Or just
get to
know your roommates. You can chat in your dorm like you would in a
real
dorm."

Phoenix beams. "Those are quite good suggestions, Ginny, thank you.
Now, does
anyone have any questions about what angst actually /is/? I can
give you a
few examples if we're unclear on it."

Judith notes, "Examples are good, if you could clarify."

Nicodemus grins sheepishly, "The RP I just had?"

Wren chuckles. "The crickets in the library incident."

Hagrid says "You could come see what animals Hagrid has around his
hut. Any
time I'm online, I'm available for RP, it's just a question of
setting. I'm
not likely to be wandering around the library, for instance, and I
don't go
in the common rooms. :)"

Hermione belatedly has a Quidditch-and-injury related question, but
it can
wait til an appropriate time.

Hagrid will get back on topic, though. Just wanted to say that. :)

Wren nods at Hagrid. "And some of us don't have a very big house so
talks in
teh common room are few and far between." Returns to topic.

Hermione waves to all, and will be back for the remainder of the
seminar once
she gets home from work. :)

Phoenix grins. "Okay. Let's say a student character has parents.
Then, in the
course of RP, they get an owl that says their parents died
tragically. Or
worse, were killed. That in and of itself isn't really angsty. It's
tragic,
and quite plausible, given the round of killings when Harry's
parents died.
However. Let's say our student's parents died on-camera, just last
week.
Then, the week after that, the student nearly breaks his neck
playing
Quidditch. And then, just yesterday, the student is caught breaking
the
rules and gets hauled into Snape's office and gets yelled at.
Pretty harsh
series of incidents."

Nadine says "So like the person wants HP's world to center around
them with
negative occurances?"

Talia says "Can it work the same way with too many good things
happening to a
character?"

Alexander says "You'd think you could milk the parents' death thing
for
awhile. It's going to seriously affect your character for all
time.. if not
always /outwardly/. So don't whine and moan about it all the time..
but
like.. it's there in the back of your head all the time. And save
up the
Quidditch injury for next year. :)"

Rhys says "It would take winning the Irish Sweepstakes to equal some
ofd these
people."

Ginny says "It also doesn't have to be huge, major things. Some
people can
just RP a million little things happening to them, and perpetually
RP being
depressed. But they advertise their depression and then basically
put
everyone else in the position of trying to cheer them up."

Ginny says "At least in my experience."

Wren agrees with Ginny.

Hagrid says "Personally, I think the key is in how it's RPed. Bad
things can
happen to a character, but if they don't constantly harp on it, and
use it
to get attention, I (personally) don't really think it's angsting."

Xavier nods. And constant good things are more unrealistic than
angsty, I
think. It's easier to ignore someone getting good grades all the
time, maybe
winning a contest in the newspaper, getting a nice broom from their
parents,
etc. than it is someone plunging down the staircase and breaking
their arm,
then falling off their broom, then having a fight with Snape.

Phoenix nods to Nadine. "Exactly. The character is running at an
emotional
high at all times, going from one crisis to the next. Everything
that
happens to them is bad. The way to handle such things is to try and
turn
things around. Instead of going on about how life stinks and how
their life
in particular stinks. The way to work it is to try and /use/ the
bad events
to cause RP that isn't necessarily all crying and being upset. If
your
character nearly gets hurt in Quidditch, that could be used to have
your
character resolve to try harder next time. Or, try to /limit/ the
series of
negative events. RP is about sharing the spotlight with others.
Help make
the /other/ guy look good once in awhile. That's how it works in
theatre.
It's not about making people RP with you and forcing them to try
and cheer
you up. It's about creating RP that people will want to join in.
I'm not
saying a little upset is wrong. But it's overuse of the high
emotions that
is what I've been seeing of late in a number of cases."

Phoenix nods to what some of the others have been saying while she's
been
typing.

You say "Does anyone else have any questions or comments on angst?"

Hagrid says "How much angst would you say is too much?"

Rhys has a vision of units of angst, rationed out.

Winter grins. "Like chocolate frogs."

Darren fives Rhys his daily ration of angst. Now don't spend it all
in one
place. :)

Wren says "Are they chocolate ants, then?"

Phoenix ooh. "Good question, Hagrid. Sure, there can be /some/ angst.
Snape's
class is enough to give anyone a bit of angst (unless they're
Slytherin).
The occasional bit is fine. By occasional, I mean, once every week
or so,
something minor might happen to upset your char, but not really more
frequently than that. Really big huge angstful stuff should
probably be kept
to a minimum. After all, we have over half a school year yet to go,
and
there's plenty of time to have bad things happen to everyone in
general by
then.

Ginny says "Yeah, like not having a Harry for me to moon over. ;)"

Alexander says "Like not having a date to the Ball! :)"

Xavier says "And as people have pointed out, keeping down the angst
doesn't
mean nothing bad can happen or that there can't be conflict."

Wren says "The same thing can happen and be handled in two different
ways. You
can pick youself up and say, oops, or you can cry about it."

Phoenix nods to Xavier. "Mostly, consider your character's emotional
state.
Xavier, would you like to show us a specific example for us?"

Nadine is going to bed.

Winter slides off of Nadine to let her go.

Nadine mumbles thanks to Winter.

Xavier says "Well, someone mentioned the cricket episode in the
library. For
those who don't know what happened: Some crickets escaped and were
hopping
around the library and getting in the way. The way it was handled,
people
helped with catching them and they were cleaned up. Now, if someone
had
decided to make it angsty, they might have had a cricket jump into
their
homework and then get smashed into the parchment, making it
unreadable, and
then burst into hysterical tears in the middle of the library."

Pierre raises hand.

You say "Or suddenly developing a fear of crickets and RPing it that
way."

Xavier says "Right."

Judith says "Or slashing their hands open on broken glass."

Ginny says "Or having a cricket jump down their robe, so that they
are the
center of attention."

Xavier says "It really is all in how you react to it. Don't just ask
if it's
fun for you.. is it realistic, and is it fun for everone else?"

Phoenix uses another example. "Your character does something bad.
Nothing
really huge. You get called into your Head's office and are
disciplined.
Then, the next person who sees you gets told that you nearly got
expelled."

Rhys or gets weepy because he had to send his toad home because it
kept
getting loose.

You say "Of course, if anyone has any questions about something of
this
nature, if you're unsure whether it would be too angsty or not, you
can
always ask one of us admin-types /before/ RPing through it. Or, if
we're
unavailable (because we have to sleep too, ya know ;), RP a lesser
aspect.
When it comes to a possibility of angst, it's /always/ better to be
safe
than sorry."

Darren sighs, it's past my bedtime. I'll catch the rest in the log
file. See
everyone tomorrow.

Phoenix waves to Darren. "Does anyone have any final questions about
angst
before I move on?"

Pierre shakes his head

Talia blinks a few times before saying softly, "No," and then sinking
back
into a trance.

Phoenix listens to the, err, crickets. "Anyone? Bueller?"

Xavier is fine.

Judith has reached a zen-like consciousness on the concept of Anglst.

Pierre looks around the room.

Judith says "Angst. I can't spell."

Phoenix grins. "Spiffy. My second and last topic is the use of OOC
information
ICly. Or the difference between the two. We've been quite lucky in
that
there's only been one major incident of this, but I've been seeing
little
minor stuff creeping up here, and I wanted to make sure we were all
on the
same page here."

Pierre knows a lot about using ooc icly. Its bad.

Wren nods.

Phoenix continues. "One thing that I wanted to set up while I was
helping set
up the game is a means for other players to see what folks are up
to. People
can see the game's Chronology, we have the log website. It's mostly
for
entertainment purposes, or in the case of a class that your
character would
ICly have been in, it helps you know what happened that your char
would ICly
know."

Judith definitely would like to learn more about the little minor
stuff
examples. That's the trickiest part, especially with a place that
uses logs
so much. Mind you, I love reading the logs. But it's so easy to
forget what
you witnessed, and what you didn't.

Wren agrees wholeheartedly with Juditch.

Judith.

Phoenix nods to Judith. "And that's what's been happening. The Rumor
BB is a
wonderful place to post stuff that everyone can ICly claim to know.
A log of
a class that your character would ICly have been at is stuff you
can ICly
claim to know. Can anyone give me an example of OOC info that could
be
misused ICly?"

Rhys says " +where"

Judith says "Right, knowing who was meeting with who, either by
seeing their
locations online or reading a log of the meeting."

Rhys says "You could see some people down at the lake on the +where
and forget
you didn't see it yourself."

Wren says "The OOC channel can sometimes be a problem, too, if you
aren't
careful."

Wren says "Public channel, I mean."

Alexander says "Public is a bad thing to use for info. Since people
are half
the time just kidding around. :}"

Ginny has also had a problem where I was chatting with someone IC
about
someone else. The person I was chatting with then paged the person
we were
talking about, to tell them that they needed to talk to me, because
I was
upset with them. And the person couldn't possibly have known it IC.

Phoenix nods. "That's a very good example. +where is not IC
information. Even
a log's events can't be taken for granted as being known to all.
One must
consider the time of the events, who else could have been present,
and how
the knowledge got to you. If you're unsure, page one or all of the
participants and ask first. That may prompt one of the participants
to post
it on the rumors board. 'Hey, I saw So and So and Such and Such
smooching up
in the Owlery'. I would like everyone to be aware of the difference
between
what your player and what your character knows. Again, this is an
area where
it's better to be safe than sorry, otherwise we have to retcon some
or all
of the scene. Some people are very particular about who sees them
doing
what."

You say "Can anyone think of any other examples of OOC information
that could
be misused ICly?"

Alexander says "Recognizing someone who's years younger than you and
in
another House, just because you can 'see' their name."

Rhys says "Something an alt knows that you don't."

Hagrid says "That's a basic one, yeah. Knowing someone's name before
you've
been told what it is. :)"

Wren says "That's a hard one, too. Some people you haven't met you
still might
know IC, if you are the same age as them, etc."

Judith says "Knowing all the intimate details about Harry, Ron &
Hermione...not to mention Professor Lupin or Sirius Black...because
you've
read all the books."

Pierre begins to fall asleep.

Iris nods, that is a good one..

Alexander says "I think you certainly /should/ know everyone in your
year and
House."

Pierre nods...

Hagrid says "That was one thought I had. It's probably pretty safe to
know all
the teachers and most of the students by name, especially if
they're close
to your year (for the students)."

Ginny says "You shouldn't know upper level spells, or about all of
the secret
passages in Hogwarts, just because they are listed in the books."

Alexander says "Why would a 6th year Slytherin take the time to know
a 1st
year Gryffindor's name though?"

Phoenix smiles. "That's a very good example, Judith, and thanks Rhys,
that's
also a very good thing, too. There are certain details which are
public
knowledge. Everyone will know who Harry Potter is on sight. Most
everyone
thinks Sirius Black is a murderer and extremely dangerous. The
books are a
wonderful source of info for us as players, but as characters, we
have to be
aware that we don't ICly know everything. For instance, Professor
Lupin.
He's not at school anymore, so it's unlikely that anyone below 4th
year will
have heard of him unless someone goes out of their way to tell you
on-camera. The fact that he's a werewolf is also not public
knowledge to
those below 4th year. Rhys also brings up a very good point. What
your
alternate character knows is not what your other character knows.
Your
Gryffindor alt won't know where the Slytherin common room is, for
example,
just because your Slytherin alt knows where it is. There is one
example of a
character who gets away with pretending he knows everything that
goes on,
but that's IC for his character."

Alexander says "3rd years had him as a prof their first year,
Phoenix. :)"

Phoenix thinks. Duh. Alexander is correctly. I can't count. :)

Phoenix eyes her typing and smiles.

Wren chuckles and guesses that character is Trelawney.

Phoenix shakes her head. "Actually, no, I should have said /does/
know most
everything, but pretends not to, as opposed to one who /doesn't/
know
everything and pretends to. I was referring to Dumbledore."

Pierre waves. "Bye all!"

Wren says "Ah. That was my second guess. :o)"
Spoonafaloona!

Phoenix grins. "Right, so with Dumbledore our resident 'sees all that
goes on
at Hogwarts' type of guy... and even he has fallibilities in this
trait,
most folks can only go ICly by the rumor mill. Again, this is
something that
if you have a question about, ask a participant in the scene you
think your
char will know about and be prepared to be told that no, your
character
wouldn't know. It happens and not everything is one of those
infamous
'complete secrets' that everyone knows.

Judith waves to the returning Hermione.

Phoenix smiles. "Now, does anyone have any questions about the IC/OOC
thing?"

Talia wakes up with a start. "No, You've explained everything
beautifully"

Wren finishes her bucket of ice cream and nods. "Wonderful."

Judith says "So when in doubt...ask the people involved and/or staff,
before
you commit yourself to something that will be sticky to undo?"

Phoenix points to Judith's comment. "Exactly."

Alexander says "I think Hermione had something on quidditch an
injuries? (or
maybe I was reading too much into a comment. :) )"

You say "Yes she did. Hermione? :)"

Hermione says "Yes. Alrighty. In the books, there's mention of how
say,
Neville got tossed off a roof or something and he bounced, and
people take
falls from great heights, etc - and it seems that wizards are
somehow
/tougher/ then Muggles. I've seen it commented on, but no one's
ever said it
was specifically canon - I was just wondering how we treat that. I
mean,
people are supposed to walk away from Quidditch matches without
ending up in
the hospital wing, at least not moreso then say, a rugby player
might."

Judith thinks rugby and ice hockey are good comparisons to quidditch,
in terms
of game roughness.

Wren says "On the other hand, I can't think of a game where someone
didn't end
up in the Hospital Wing. Wood himself got knocked off his broom in
the very
first game. Just not... 6 people."

Judith says "And it was noted that Cho had had 'trouble with
injuries' before
Gryffindor came up against Ravenclaw."

Wren I'm will to bet her problem started with an S. Oh, wait did I
say that? ^^

Alexander says "Neville's broken wrist got fixed up pretty quick. And
Harry
broke his arm which I think Pomfrey says she could 'fix in a
minute'..
except that Lockhart got to him first."

Phoenix nods. "Basically, we can assume that wizardly types are a bit
tougher
than muggles. Quidditch isn't really a lethal sort of sport. It's
just
rough. And school Quidditch can be presumed to be less rough than
professional level. Most Quidditch injuries should only be of the
bumps and
bruises sort, not the sort of stuff where you're in the hospital
wing all
the time. And 'trouble with injuries', to me, means she had a
pretty nasty
injury at some point and her physical conditioning and recovery
took awhile.
While this is a magical world, and there are some magical cures to
things
such as broken limbs, serious injuries still need some kind of
physical
therapy, or they should.

Phoenix invites... yeah, Pix. Tell 'em how it is. :)

Pixie arrives 'cause she has something to say about the injuries. ;)

Judith says "And Draco was going about with his arm in a sling after
the
incident with Buckbeak, although he was probably faking most of
that."

Pixie says "The extent of the injuries at the quidditch game were
caused by
two things: we weren't clear about how injured people should get
before the
match, and people succumbing to the urge to angst. Injuries are to
be
expected, but no, the extent and /duration/ of the injuries that
occurred
should not be happening all the time. Quidditch is a very violent
sport, but
wizard medicine is quite up to the challenge of fixing everyone up
again for
the most part. At the next game, this will be made more clear."

Ginny toddles off to bed.

Hermione wavels!

Pixie says "Night, Ginny. :)"

Judith says "Night night, Ginny!"

Ginny says "Night all."

Talia says "Night Night!"

Phoenix wavies.

You say "Anyone have any further questions? :)"

Judith says "When is the next match going to be held?"

Pixie says "The next match is after break, so will probably be.. the
week of
the 11th."

Judith nods.

Phoenix smiles. "If no one has anything further, I'll put this puppy
to bed
and edit the log."
--- End forwarded message ---
--- End forwarded message ---