Hey Pete,
Thanks for letting me in the group! I will try to do some combat simulation
soon, and get
the results for you. I have a more advanced idea for combat, actually, that I'm
throwing out
there for something we can work on down the road.

How cool would it be for players to be able to buy "styles" of swordplay as
upgrades? I'm
thinking notoriusly of wonderful swordfight sequences in the "The Princess
Bride" - "Ah, I
see you have studied Vezzini. Do you know Cappelli's defense, by chance?" I
could see this
as working one of two ways. Either each new "style" gives the player some kind
of bonus in
combat, for example, learning Capelli's defense would allow the player to parry
with an
off-hand dagger, and subtract 1 from his opponent's attack total. Some styles
would work
better with some kinds of weapons, etc. Or, more complicated, before each turn
each
player declares what style they are using. They then consult a chart (I know, I
know) to see
what modifiers each applies to their dice rolls based on the style they are
fighting against.

Kinda half-baked, but there it is...

Also, are you going to give certain weapons (swords, basically) bonuses/minuses
against
other types of weapons?

Later,
Markus

Pat,

That is an excellent idea (and exactly how I handle it currently when players
bring it up).
However, codifying non-traditional combat is a great idea. I'll have to make
that the
subject of my next article.

Rich

--- In gloire@yahoogroups.com, "theoldschooluk" <patrick.connor@...> wrote:
>
> Rather than add new combat rules, why not add new combat types? This
> was done to good effect many years ago in a game by Yaquinto (I can't
> remember the name of the game offhand).
> For example: to pull the rug from under the feet of an opponent make
> an opposed roll, attacker adds Brawn, defender adds Dodge; to push a
> table or chair at a group of opponents - attacker rolls 1D10 and adds
> Brawn, the 'table' rolls 1D10 and adds 'size'. The trable moves 1" in
> the direction of the push for every point the attacker wins by. Any
> enemy figures in the way of the table make a Dodge roll or are knocked
> over by the table (you could modify this for size). Lots of
> possibilities to add Hollywood effects to combats.
> Pat
>
> --- In gloire@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Murray" <p_g_murray@> wrote:
> >
> > Since combat is already on opposed rolls, I assumed this was built
> in.
> >
> > I see merit in your suggestion--it would certainly allow for the
> > narrative of combat to be played out in dice--but I'm reluctant to
> > start adding new combat rules. If a combat between two players is
> > taking too long, everyone else in the group loses interest.
> >
> > Let me think about it a bit.
>

Rather than add new combat rules, why not add new combat types? This
was done to good effect many years ago in a game by Yaquinto (I can't
remember the name of the game offhand).
For example: to pull the rug from under the feet of an opponent make
an opposed roll, attacker adds Brawn, defender adds Dodge; to push a
table or chair at a group of opponents - attacker rolls 1D10 and adds
Brawn, the 'table' rolls 1D10 and adds 'size'. The trable moves 1" in
the direction of the push for every point the attacker wins by. Any
enemy figures in the way of the table make a Dodge roll or are knocked
over by the table (you could modify this for size). Lots of
possibilities to add Hollywood effects to combats.
Pat

--- In gloire@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Murray" <p_g_murray@...> wrote:
>
> Since combat is already on opposed rolls, I assumed this was built
in.
>
> I see merit in your suggestion--it would certainly allow for the
> narrative of combat to be played out in dice--but I'm reluctant to
> start adding new combat rules. If a combat between two players is
> taking too long, everyone else in the group loses interest.
>
> Let me think about it a bit.

Richard
You know the work I have been doing on simplyfying the wounds tables
for faster combats, but on this one I would tend to disagree (in the
nicest possible way).
I can see where you are coming from and largely agree, but to remove
one grade of model would leave very little 'wiggle room'. Why not
leave all four .45 Grades as they are, but just make more use of the
half-grade models. That way the sergeant of the Cadinal's guard can
be a Grade 2, his right hand man a Grade 1 (a bit about the crowd
but not much) and the nmajority of the riff-raff half grades.
Pat


--- In gloire@yahoogroups.com, "rattrap_raj" <rattrap_raj@...> wrote:
>
> Having seen the response to the Grade levels, Pete, for Gloire I
would like to consider keeping
> Grades 3 and 2 the same, but making the Grade 1s with the stat
line of the current Half
> Grades.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Richard A. Johnson
> Rattrap Productions
> www.rattrap-productions.com
>

Eric has suggested that duelists have a parry mode and counterattack
mode. I know why he suggested this--a single opposed dice roll seems
to lack some of the flair and flasing back-and-forth swords. More
combat rolls might give some sense of the struggle. Since this game
should be about providing feel to the period, this idea is worth
serious consideration.

BUT

One of the nice things about close combat in .45Adv is that it's
quick and involves both players. This means nobody has time to
wander off while the combat gets resolved. I am also reluctant to
start just adding parts onto the combat rules for the sake of
appearance, unless they can be shown not to slow down combat too
much.

Eric, if you can describe what you have in mind more fully, I'd be
happy to simulate it out and see what comes up. Until then, it's
easy to come up ideas, but there's no guarantee they'll work.

This holds true for suggestions on rules in general:

It's okay to suggest new rules.
A rules suggestion with specifics is much better.
A specific rule with simulations is best.

> --->I'll do mine this weekend.

Cool! I'm doing shooting simulation tonight.

> --->Sounds like a good idea. And we'll probably change Heater to
Musket (MK).

I was thinking Shot (ST) but Musket works too.

> --->Yup, Grade 1s will die in droves or be man-handled by someone
who is skilled with a
> blade.

In last night's simulation, Aramis (Grade 3), who is by no means as
good as Athos at handling a sword, tore up the Guardsman (Grade 1).
I think after 20 combats, Aramis had won almost 75% of them, which
meant that there would have been 9 or 10 dead guardsmen, the rest
all nursing broken arms and punctured legs.

A high BD score is going to be vital in this game.

Since combat is already on opposed rolls, I assumed this was built in.

I see merit in your suggestion--it would certainly allow for the
narrative of combat to be played out in dice--but I'm reluctant to
start adding new combat rules. If a combat between two players is
taking too long, everyone else in the group loses interest.

Let me think about it a bit.

--- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "laurent-nauguet eric"
<eric.laurentnauguet@...> wrote:
>
> Just an idea : what about a parry mode and counterattack mode for
duelists ?
>
> Eric
>

--- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "laurent-nauguet eric" <eric.laurentnauguet@...>
wrote:

> But, can a hero die sometimes or never ? All movie don't have a happy end.

--->Technically, Heros never die. In the pulp magazines that inspired the .45
Adventure
game, the heros get beat up, shot up and in some cases blown up and still walk
away
unscathed.

Now, that is not to say you cannot run games your own way. I have set up
scenarios where a
Grade 3 dies (simply changing his Unconscious to Killed). But, I don't have this
happen to
players. When I finally start work on the Campaign book, there will be a slim
chance for a
hero to die in an extended campaign.

If a player tells you they are going to jump in the streaming lava to avoid
capture because the
worst that happens is they fall unconscious, I would call that an extenuating
cicumstance and
rule the model would die if he did that.

Rich

I think I am going to remove bullwhips from the next draft of the
weapons table. I can't find enough justification for them in this
period--with the possible exception of a torturer henchman for the bad
guys. I think in that case you would have to have it count as a club
or long blade, or import it from .45Adv as a house rule.

--- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Murray" <p_g_murray@...> wrote:

> A great contribution to playtesting would be if you could contribute
> this kind of raw data. Anyone who does this will win my great
> affection and be made a Knight of the Golden Fleece.

--->I'll do mine this weekend.

> *I'd like to change the name of the Shiv attribute (SH) to "Blade"
> (BD) in Gloire.

--->Sounds like a good idea. And we'll probably change Heater to Musket (MK).

> **Per Rich's suggestion, I made Grade 1 models equivalent to the
> half-grades in Dragon Bones. Since they're not covered in your basic
> rule book, let me fill you in real quick--these models die in
> droves. 60% of the time a single damaging hit will kill them. The
> remaining 40% of the time it all but incapacitates them.

--->Yup, Grade 1s will die in droves or be man-handled by someone who is skilled
with a
blade.

Rich

I'd like to share some of my methodology for playtesting for the
benefit of people who haven't done much heavy playtesting.

Right now, Gloire is in the stage where the mechanics of the game
still need to be tested extensively, especially in combat. There are
enough differences between Gloire and .45 Adventures (especially
regarding weakening ranged combat) that the combat differs between
the two systems, so lots of testing is needed here in order to
determine whether there is anything game-breaking in the combat
rules. The only way to test this is to simulate combat. A lot.

This is the least exciting and most important part of developing a
new game. A playtester who helps work out the kinks, one grinding
dice roll at a time, is a valuable contributor.

So what I do is I imagine a situation I want to test. Last night I
worked on close combat between different Grade models. Let's review
how close combat works in .45 Adventure

Attacker SH score +/- modifiers + d10
(versus)
Defender SH score +/- modifiers + d10

Whoever scores higher, wins the combat. For the moment, let's make
all modifiers zero and not worry about wounding. So all we care
about is the SH* score, and the d10 result.

I take a piece of graph paper, and at the top describe the combat
I'm trying to simulate--in this case a Grade 3 model with a SH of 4
versus a Grade 1** model with a SH of 3. I have two pens: A blue one
for the Grade 3, a red one for the Grade 1. I set up a table with
three columns:

Attacker CC score
Defender CC score
Difference

Each row of the table is going to be a round of combat.

I roll for the Grade 3 attacker, add the SH score, and get a number.
I write this in blue in the "Attacker CC" column--in this case it's
a 12. I roll for the Grade 1 defender, add the SH score, and get a
number--in this case, a 6. I write this in red in the "Defender CC"
column. Then I figure out who won, and by how much. Since the
attacker won by 6, I write a 6 in blue in the "Difference" column.

Repeat a number of times. I do twenty combats, then look at the
results. Since this is close combat, and the loser is forced back if
the difference is greater than 5, I put an asterix by all the
Difference scores of 5 or greater.

Now I can analyze my results. Is the result lopsided one way or the
other? Are too many combats ending with large differences? If they
are, is this to be expected?

Note also by recording the Difference score, you can imagine what
would happen if you tweaked the numbers slightly by pushing the
result one way or the other consistently. If these were all charges,
for example, all red Differences would be lower by 2, and blue
Differences higher by 2. How does that bias the results?

I'll upload one of these scanned test sheets at some point so you
can see what I've done.

Note that no figures were actually involved. As exciting as
miniatures are, rules are rules, and the mechanics of them don't
require figures. This kind of combat simulation is something you can
do while watching TV, or painting figures. You just roll a d10, fill
in the column real quick, then go back to whatever it is you're
doing.

A great contribution to playtesting would be if you could contribute
this kind of raw data. Anyone who does this will win my great
affection and be made a Knight of the Golden Fleece.

-------
*I'd like to change the name of the Shiv attribute (SH) to "Blade"
(BD) in Gloire.

**Per Rich's suggestion, I made Grade 1 models equivalent to the
half-grades in Dragon Bones. Since they're not covered in your basic
rule book, let me fill you in real quick--these models die in
droves. 60% of the time a single damaging hit will kill them. The
remaining 40% of the time it all but incapacitates them.

I like three grades and set up .45 Adventure that way so that players could do
Hero,
sidekick, and nameless minions. What I had not expected was the clamour for the
nameless minions to die in droves, which is why the half grade was introduced in
Dragon
Bones. You learn something new every day.

Rich



--- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "laurent-nauguet eric" <eric.laurentnauguet@...>
wrote:
>
> I agree. Too many grades would kill the game speed and to behonest I think
> that 2 grades would even be enough.
>
> Eric
>
> -------Message original-------
>
> De : rattrap_raj
> Date : 03/30/06 00:43:54
> A : glorie@yahoogroups.com
> Sujet : [glorie] Re: Grades
>
> Too many grades and people would avoid the 1s. If you stick with 3 grades,
> then people
> will probably take a few of the 1s.
>
> I like sticking to three Grades for human characters.
>
> Rich
>
> --- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Murray" <p_g_murray@> wrote:
> >
> > That sounds good. For one thing, the Cardinal's Guards will start
> > dying in droves, which is what they're there for.
> >
> > The alternative would be to have Grade 4 (old 3), Grade 3 (old 2),
> > Grade 2 (old 1) and Grade 1 (old .5) but even as I type this I
> > dislike this idea somewhat.
> >
> > --- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "rattrap_raj" <rattrap_raj@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Having seen the response to the Grade levels, Pete, for Gloire I
> > would like to consider keeping
> > > Grades 3 and 2 the same, but making the Grade 1s with the stat
> > line of the current Half
> > > Grades.
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > >
> > > Richard A. Johnson
> > > Rattrap Productions
> > > www.rattrap-productions.com
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>  Visit your group "glorie" on the web.
>
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  glorie-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>

Too many grades and people would avoid the 1s. If you stick with 3 grades, then
people
will probably take a few of the 1s.

I like sticking to three Grades for human characters.

Rich

--- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Murray" <p_g_murray@...> wrote:
>
> That sounds good. For one thing, the Cardinal's Guards will start
> dying in droves, which is what they're there for.
>
> The alternative would be to have Grade 4 (old 3), Grade 3 (old 2),
> Grade 2 (old 1) and Grade 1 (old .5) but even as I type this I
> dislike this idea somewhat.
>
> --- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "rattrap_raj" <rattrap_raj@> wrote:
> >
> > Having seen the response to the Grade levels, Pete, for Gloire I
> would like to consider keeping
> > Grades 3 and 2 the same, but making the Grade 1s with the stat
> line of the current Half
> > Grades.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Richard A. Johnson
> > Rattrap Productions
> > www.rattrap-productions.com
> >
>

Absolutely Eric. I think what Pete wants to do is have a "calling out" rule.
Basically, if you
think you have the better swordsman, you challenge the opposing model to a duel.
Now,
the other player does not have to accept and this duel would never replace the
sword
fights with the Cardinal's guard it's just an added period rule.

Rich

--- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "laurent-nauguet eric" <eric.laurentnauguet@...>
wrote:
>
> I agree but if you want to fight against villains, these could be grade 1.
> In this case the musketeers fight with the cardinal "soldiers" to save a
> lady for instance.
>
> You could have 4 grade 3 against 1 grade 3, 1 grade 2 and many grade 1.
>
> It can't be always be a duel for honour.
>
> Eric
>
> -------Message original-------
>
> De : Pete Murray
> Date : 03/29/06 22:40:04
> A : glorie@yahoogroups.com
> Sujet : [glorie] New rule posted: Dueling
>
> You can't have a swashbuckling adventure game without dueling--that
> would be like having a county fair without corndogs. So I've uploaded
> a document in the files section for these.
>
> Models must be within one grade of each other (a Grade 3 model would
> not deign to duel an inferior Grade 1, and a Grade 1 would be too
> scared to challenge a Grade 3). The challenger picks the duel. The
> challenged player can decline the duel by paying 1 Hero Point. So you
> do not idly opt out of duels! The pride of your little metal man is
> far too delicate to walk away so easily.
>
> There are two kinds of duels: To the Blood and To the Death. To the
> Death duels are rare, and only can be between Grade 3 characters at
> the climax of a game or campaign.
>
> To the Blood duels reward the winner with Hero Points, and leave the
> loser nursing his hurt pride on the ground.
>
> Check them out. Play them out. Send in your comments.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Wargaming Game system Musketeer
>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>  Visit your group "glorie" on the web.
>
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  glorie-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>

I think in that case, you'd make the lady the scenario objective, and
combat would handle it normally. So 3 Cardinalists (Grade 1) could
take on Athos (Grade 3) in a straight-up fight while D'Artagnan (Grade
2) would challenge Rochefort (Grade 3) to a duel.

In the dueling rules, only the two models in the duel would fight each
other, so if Rochefort and D'Artagnan are dueling, neither Athos nor a
Cardinalist can get help.

Does that make sense?

--- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "laurent-nauguet eric"
<eric.laurentnauguet@...> wrote:
>
> I agree but if you want to fight against villains, these could be
grade 1.
> In this case the musketeers fight with the cardinal "soldiers" to save a
> lady for instance.
>
> You could have 4 grade 3 against 1 grade 3, 1 grade 2 and many grade 1.
>
> It can't be always be a duel for honour.
>
> Eric
>
> -------Message original-------
>
> De : Pete Murray
> Date : 03/29/06 22:40:04
> A : glorie@yahoogroups.com
> Sujet : [glorie] New rule posted: Dueling
>
> You can't have a swashbuckling adventure game without dueling--that
> would be like having a county fair without corndogs. So I've uploaded
> a document in the files section for these.
>
> Models must be within one grade of each other (a Grade 3 model would
> not deign to duel an inferior Grade 1, and a Grade 1 would be too
> scared to challenge a Grade 3). The challenger picks the duel. The
> challenged player can decline the duel by paying 1 Hero Point. So you
> do not idly opt out of duels! The pride of your little metal man is
> far too delicate to walk away so easily.
>
> There are two kinds of duels: To the Blood and To the Death. To the
> Death duels are rare, and only can be between Grade 3 characters at
> the climax of a game or campaign.
>
> To the Blood duels reward the winner with Hero Points, and leave the
> loser nursing his hurt pride on the ground.
>
> Check them out. Play them out. Send in your comments.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Wargaming Game system Musketeer
>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>  Visit your group "glorie" on the web.
>
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  glorie-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>

You can't have a swashbuckling adventure game without dueling--that
would be like having a county fair without corndogs. So I've uploaded
a document in the files section for these.

Models must be within one grade of each other (a Grade 3 model would
not deign to duel an inferior Grade 1, and a Grade 1 would be too
scared to challenge a Grade 3). The challenger picks the duel. The
challenged player can decline the duel by paying 1 Hero Point. So you
do not idly opt out of duels! The pride of your little metal man is
far too delicate to walk away so easily.

There are two kinds of duels: To the Blood and To the Death. To the
Death duels are rare, and only can be between Grade 3 characters at
the climax of a game or campaign.

To the Blood duels reward the winner with Hero Points, and leave the
loser nursing his hurt pride on the ground.

Check them out. Play them out. Send in your comments.

An excellent question! Yes, the fowling piece is a shotgun, but the
term hadn't been invented yet (which reminds me, having a "Gats"
attribute in 1700 is anachronistic--that'll need to be looked at). Let
me evade your question on two points.

1. Personally, I dislike weapons templates. I would not be opposed to
a house rule that used such, but I find that templates introduce a
level of complication that seldom returns on the investment. Weapons
templates are also prone to abuse.

2. There's no shotgun template in .45 Adv, IIRC.



--- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "flashman1889" <camaranol@...> wrote:
>
> The ranges look to be just fine.  However, the fowling piece is
really
> just a shotgun so I was wondering are you going to put in a rule
> regarding spread for the shot.  I think a simple cone with either,
> progressively lighter damage or lighter damage to all within the
cone
> simulate this effect well
>
> John
>

I'd like to avoid templates as they get annoying to some people. I think stating
that models 1"
to either side of target take X damage as well.

Rich

--- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "flashman1889" <camaranol@...> wrote:
>
> The ranges look to be just fine.  However, the fowling piece is really
> just a shotgun so I was wondering are you going to put in a rule
> regarding spread for the shot.  I think a simple cone with either,
> progressively lighter damage or lighter damage to all within the cone
> simulate this effect well
>
> John
>

That sounds good. For one thing, the Cardinal's Guards will start
dying in droves, which is what they're there for.

The alternative would be to have Grade 4 (old 3), Grade 3 (old 2),
Grade 2 (old 1) and Grade 1 (old .5) but even as I type this I
dislike this idea somewhat.

--- In glorie@yahoogroups.com, "rattrap_raj" <rattrap_raj@...> wrote:
>
> Having seen the response to the Grade levels, Pete, for Gloire I
would like to consider keeping
> Grades 3 and 2 the same, but making the Grade 1s with the stat
line of the current Half
> Grades.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Richard A. Johnson
> Rattrap Productions
> www.rattrap-productions.com
>

Having seen the response to the Grade levels, Pete, for Gloire I would like to
consider keeping
Grades 3 and 2 the same, but making the Grade 1s with the stat line of the
current Half
Grades.

Thoughts?

Richard A. Johnson
Rattrap Productions
www.rattrap-productions.com

The ranges look to be just fine.  However, the fowling piece is really
just a shotgun so I was wondering are you going to put in a rule
regarding spread for the shot.  I think a simple cone with either,
progressively lighter damage or lighter damage to all within the cone
simulate this effect well

John

A draft weapons chart is now up. Pay particular attention to the
pistol, musket, and fowling piece--the range is much shorter than the
weapons in .45 Adventures, accuracy is lower, and WS is down and drops
over range bands. As near as I have been able to figure out, this
means that even an unarmored (no DR boost) character should get a
saving throw against damage.

While I think this makes the weapons appropriately weak, I worry that
this will slow down play. Please give it a go and let me know what
your experiences are.

Welcome, prospective playtesters, to Gloire (or Glorie), a rules
adaptation of .45 Adventures designed to cover swashbuckling and
heroism in the Age of Kings. I'd like to thank Rich for allowing
this project to proceed, and the interest and time he's spent
arranging this.

The kings of this period could be powerful men, like Russia's Peter
the Great and the Sun King Louis XIV, or wily survivors like Charles
II of England, or superior politicians like William of Orange. Kings
were notoriously sensitive to their pride. Louis XIV fought a war in
the Netherlands on the justification that a commemorative medal was
actually a veiled insult to him! The kings vied with each other,
sometimes openly, always in secret, to control the wealth of the
continent and the colonies of the New World. For just as kings needed
triumph on the battlefield, they needed spies and agents,
negotiators and ambassadors, and cunning agents of the state in
addition to brawn. As battles and wars were often inconclusive,
negotiations between kingdoms were vital to success or failure of a
campaign, and these hinged on countless hidden dealings.

Though there is a tendency to think of this period as stuffy and
boring, there are many exciting opportunities for gaming held
within. Against the backdrop of Europe in constant conflict, with
the radiant splendor of the king, countless minor actors work to
undermine and build up, to steal scraps of information, arrange
secret treaties, and bury the skeletons of the state.

Many famous and exciting stories are set during this period, such as
the Three Musketeers and its sequels, Captain Blood, etc. The King's
select guardsmen battle the king's enemies, while spies in court
intrigue and buccaneers prowl the high seas. Midnight riders carry
coded dispatches to ministers, warning of deception. A party of
politically influential nobles on the hunt are set upon by
assassins, disguised as peasants.

Crucial to the proper gaming of this period is the notion of Gloire,
the quality of radiating glory and majesty. A man possessed of
Gloire is deferential to those above his station, and dismissive of
those below him. He is generous and lavish in his tastes. He brooks
no insult to his honor and defends his courage by those means
reserved for gentlemen. His words are soft but firm, and he is
eloquent without being verbose. He can demonstrate magnanimity to a
worthy foe, but expects the vanquished enemy to recognize that he is
beaten. He attracts followers by virtue of his charisma, and cows
the lowly with his majesty.

It is my hope to upload various rules adaptations, have you, the
playtesters, play them out, and then return them for comments. To
begin with, we will have the demo rules of .45 Adventures available,
as well as a weapons table. Then later we will add character
creation rules, some special rules (like dueling!) and some assorted
hobby information.

Again, welcome to the group. I look forward to working with you all
on this project!