I'd like to play EDIE with a friend who has a firewall, and I have a
D-Link firewall too.  How can we hook up if we both have IP
addresses like "192.168.0.3"?

Debaser

You will need to set each others IP address in the firewall for
pass-thru.

If you don't know your external IP address you can get it from:

http://www.whatismyip.com/

An easy way to configure some firewall's is to have the other person
send a connect request to you. The firewall will report an alarm. You
can then click on the alarm and tell it let that IP address thru.

forwarding is another animal. What you'll want to do is tell the
firewall to forward all requests for socket 45000 to the IP address
that your machine has behind the wall.

Randy





--- debaser5552001 <greg@...> wrote:
> I'd like to play EDIE with a friend who has a firewall, and I have
> a
> D-Link firewall too.  How can we hook up if we both have IP
> addresses like "192.168.0.3"?
>
> Debaser
>
>




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I will be out of the office starting  08.07.2004 and will not return until
25.07.2004.

Hi everyone,

I am interested in playing some PBEM games.  If you want to, just
drop me a line.

Jeff

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the empire-deluxe
group.

   File        : /tr_cheat.zip
   Uploaded by : general_error404 <andy.young.2004@...>
   Description : Computer players seem to exhibit omniscience.  Do they cheat?

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/empire-deluxe/files/tr_cheat.zip

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

general_error404 <andy.young.2004@...>

My friend likes to make odd scenarios in ED3.11.
He made one with a vast sea (150x200) and no way to get a plane
across it.
To his surprise, the computer player had no problem zeroing in on his
cities, even though he uses normal exploration rules.

The same thing happens in EDIE.
The transports in these saved games demonstrate omniscience.  They
seem to know not only where the other player's cities are but one
player seems to know that the other player will be attacking it's
city soon.

See tr_cheat.zip in the files section for several saved games that
demonstrate this.

MOK, Will this happen in the EDEE?

GeneralError

I sure hope so, otherwise we risk, ineffective and boring AI's at least so
far as concerns play against the human player.

Antrine

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Young [mailto:andy.young.2004@...]
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 7:02 PM
To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [empire-deluxe] Do computer players cheat?

My friend likes to make odd scenarios in ED3.11.
He made one with a vast sea (150x200) and no way to get a plane across it.
To his surprise, the computer player had no problem zeroing in on his
cities, even though he uses normal exploration rules.

The same thing happens in EDIE.
The transports in these saved games demonstrate omniscience.  They seem to
know not only where the other player's cities are but one player seems to
know that the other player will be attacking it's city soon.

See tr_cheat.zip in the files section for several saved games that
demonstrate this.

MOK, Will this happen in the EDEE?

GeneralError



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I don't know if they cheat, but if I remeber correctly, in the raw map data
there is a
number that shows the number of cities on an island, I'm guessing the AI uses
this number
to determin if there are any uncounquerd cities left.

Breaker

--- Antrine Kasalar <Ukala@...> wrote: > I sure hope so, otherwise we
risk,
ineffective and boring AI's at least so
> far as concerns play against the human player.
>
> Antrine
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Young [mailto:andy.young.2004@...]
> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 7:02 PM
> To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [empire-deluxe] Do computer players cheat?
>
> My friend likes to make odd scenarios in ED3.11.
> He made one with a vast sea (150x200) and no way to get a plane across it.
> To his surprise, the computer player had no problem zeroing in on his
> cities, even though he uses normal exploration rules.
>
> The same thing happens in EDIE.
> The transports in these saved games demonstrate omniscience.  They seem to
> know not only where the other player's cities are but one player seems to
> know that the other player will be attacking it's city soon.
>
> See tr_cheat.zip in the files section for several saved games that
> demonstrate this.
>
> MOK, Will this happen in the EDEE?
>
> GeneralError
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
> a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/xkRolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

=====
Have a nice day,
Andrew.





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I recently made a 3 way map for some other players. I wanted to make
sure it was balanced, so I let three robots play each other while I
watched. I had never done this before. I was amazed at how poorly the
AI's expanded, made production decisions and implemented other
aspects of the game.

There's not doubt in my mind that the AI's do NOT know where unseen
cities are and do not have an algorithm to go directly to such
cities.
At least under EDIE.

Randy


--- Antrine Kasalar <Ukala@...> wrote:
> I sure hope so, otherwise we risk, ineffective and boring AI's at
> least so
> far as concerns play against the human player.
>
> Antrine
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Young [mailto:andy.young.2004@...]
> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 7:02 PM
> To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [empire-deluxe] Do computer players cheat?
>
> My friend likes to make odd scenarios in ED3.11.
> He made one with a vast sea (150x200) and no way to get a plane
> across it.
> To his surprise, the computer player had no problem zeroing in on
> his
> cities, even though he uses normal exploration rules.
>
> The same thing happens in EDIE.
> The transports in these saved games demonstrate omniscience.  They
> seem to
> know not only where the other player's cities are but one player
> seems to
> know that the other player will be attacking it's city soon.
>
> See tr_cheat.zip in the files section for several saved games that
> demonstrate this.
>
> MOK, Will this happen in the EDEE?
>
> GeneralError
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~--> Make
> a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/xkRolB/TM
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>





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-----Original Message-----
From: Randy.R [mailto:steyrhahn@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 7:44 AM
To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [empire-deluxe] Do computer players cheat?

I recently made a 3 way map for some other players. I wanted to make
sure it was balanced, so I let three robots play each other while I
watched. I had never done this before. I was amazed at how poorly the
AI's expanded, made production decisions and implemented other
aspects of the game.

There's not doubt in my mind that the AI's do NOT know where unseen
cities are and do not have an algorithm to go directly to such
cities.
At least under EDIE.

Randy


--- Antrine Kasalar <Ukala@...> wrote:
> I sure hope so, otherwise we risk, ineffective and boring AI's at
> least so
> far as concerns play against the human player.
>
> Antrine
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Young [mailto:andy.young.2004@...]
> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 7:02 PM
> To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [empire-deluxe] Do computer players cheat?
>
> My friend likes to make odd scenarios in ED3.11.
> He made one with a vast sea (150x200) and no way to get a plane
> across it.
> To his surprise, the computer player had no problem zeroing in on
> his
> cities, even though he uses normal exploration rules.
>
> The same thing happens in EDIE.
> The transports in these saved games demonstrate omniscience.  They
> seem to
> know not only where the other player's cities are but one player
> seems to
> know that the other player will be attacking it's city soon.
>
> See tr_cheat.zip in the files section for several saved games that
> demonstrate this.
>
> MOK, Will this happen in the EDEE?
>
> GeneralError
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~--> Make
> a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/xkRolB/TM
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>



     
           
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Some member of this group has asked about older versions of Empire.
I have an old and even older version and would be happy to discuss
an arrangement. Bill

Hello Gamers,
I was looking for a quick and easy way to generate semi balanced maps
for quick games.  Using Fubster's fub.dll I came up with the 80x100squ
6x250lm quick game.fst .  This is also a good FST to test what happens
when you change the Building Algorithms.

Please give it a whirl and let me know what you think
Steve

Some member of this group has asked about older versions of Empire.
I have an old and even older version and would be happy to discuss
an arrangement. Bill

----- Original Message -----

From: Douglas Johnson

To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 5:25 PM

Subject: Re: [empire-deluxe] Looking for a PBEM game

Ok,  here's my start up randomly drawn scenario. This is using the new empire deluxe secure game system.

 

Doug Johnson

---

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How about the two players corresponding directly with each other
instead of to the entire group.

Thanks




--- Douglas Johnson <rebeldoug@...> wrote:
> Ok,  here's my start up randomly drawn scenario. This is using the
> new empire deluxe secure game system.
>
> Doug Johnson
>



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In EDIE, the computer does have access to certain information that the player does not have on the map. He does NOT have access to where you are before he discovers you. He does know how many cities are on a whole island when he sees part of it. I believe this was done to add certain play efficiencies to the AI player. The way the map is set up in the particular scenario in question may cause the AI to gravitate to the other player in a certain way as a result of this, but he is not doing it overtly.

I want to define cheating versus handicapping.

Many TBS games give the computer player an advantage. They do this in many ways…here are a few quick ones off the top of my head:

Enhance Unit Capabilities:

-Make units faster/move farther

-Make units fight with better probabilities

-Make the computer player produce more of something

Enhance Player Capabilities

-Reveal the human player’s units

-Reveal the hidden map

-In tech tree game, they advance faster

Other advantages

-Computer players gang up on the human

I define cheating as “not playing by the rules set up for the game”… or the gifting of advantages to a player with out choice. So if I play a game with Infantry, but the game engine allowed computer Infantry to fight with a 70% chance of winning while mine fight with a 50% chance, that would be a cheat…UNLESS this advantage was gained by a handicap that was specified in the game setup.

So if any of the above advantages are in the game without the approval of the human player, I call them cheats Otherwise, they are handicaps.

In General Error’s case, he is calling what occurs a cheat, because he feels the computer should not know the other players’ whereabouts. I agree it is a cheat, but not as big of one as he suggests.

Some TBS game designers and players will say handicaps over cheats are a mistake, because computer players are supposed to give you the illusion that you are playing a tough game against a good opponent on even terms. And if you open up and allow handicaps versus cheats, you are acknowledging the failings of the handicapped player, and the illusion is dispelled. In this case, the goal of the computer player is not to play well, but to cheat well enough to maintain this illusion.

In ED and other TBS games, computer players are ranked as Easy-Standard-Hard, etc. In ED, Hard means he tries to think deeper. In games that allow cheating opponents, it is essentially adjusting the handicaps under the covers.

If you look at it from the handicap point of view, ED has a computer player that can beat you every time if you handicap it in a certain way. And if you desire a greater or lesser challenge, you adjust it appropriately. If you look at it from a point of view that accepts cheating in games, it is not and can never be a great player, even on the Hardest Level.

Personally, I find it more frustrating to play a computer player billed as “Hard” when he really only is handicapped without my expressed permission. So it is one of my design goals in EDEE to make an AI that does not cheat. This does not mean that in the setup the AI can be given handicaps to give him an advantage in a game, but that advantage must be defined in the game setup.

As I have said many times, my EDEE AI players will certainly not be the end-all to computer opponent play, and experienced ED players will be able to beat him under non-handicapped conditions. But I think EDEE has a fantastic feature for TBS game with the fully programmable AI.

Some games have allowed you to tweak scripts to adjust the players, but I have not seen game where you can have complete control over how the computer player works. I have seen this done with FPS games like Quake, and the ‘bots’ produced by individual fans are simply amazing. This is what I hope will occur with future AI players in ED. The AI players will evolve over time. They will not be locked, and not controlled by me.

I am thrilled with the possibilities of AI behavior modding. This is
what the industry desperately requires, as even larger houses excuse
there way out it and short cut it with simply giving the AI measured
material advantage. No matter the excuses TBS games need get to like
well made chess programs. The computers are here, been here, we are
on a marketing model plateau of no measurable AI behavior improvement.

I say reverse the emphasis, GIVE the AI teeth right out of gate,
however give the human player material advantage, and occational
omnipresent vision, to see everything with a click of button. Just
call it something clever like 'lucky break, spies report...'

Anyway, my three cents on the matter. I have been for over eight
months modding a CIV Conquests Mod, C3C. It has teeth now and plays
like fire and I have managed to make a lot things work (by modding)
that the Vanilla does not do and even others have had difficulty
making happen. It is most interesting to tweak and adjust game play
to get that 'in game' feel of a 'rock and roll' experience from the
first turn to the last.

I look forward, to EDEE and have been passing the links around
various TBS boards.

With many blessings,
Antrine

Enhance Unit Capabilities:

-Make units faster/move farther

-Make units fight with better probabilities

-Make the computer player produce more of something

Enhance Player Capabilities

-Reveal the human player’s units

-Reveal the hidden map

-In tech tree game, they advance faster

Other advantages

-Computer players gang up on the human



Will it be possible to grant AI players unilateral advantages such as these?

Antrine wrote:

> I am thrilled with the possibilities of AI behavior modding. This is
> what the industry desperately requires, as even larger houses excuse
> there way out it and short cut it with simply giving the AI measured
> material advantage. No matter the excuses TBS games need get to like
> well made chess programs. The computers are here, been here, we are
> on a marketing model plateau of no measurable AI behavior improvement.
>
> I say reverse the emphasis, GIVE the AI teeth right out of gate,
> however give the human player material advantage, and occational
> omnipresent vision, to see everything with a click of button. Just
> call it something clever like 'lucky break, spies report...'
>
> Anyway, my three cents on the matter. I have been for over eight
> months modding a CIV Conquests Mod, C3C. It has teeth now and plays
> like fire and I have managed to make a lot things work (by modding)
> that the Vanilla does not do and even others have had difficulty
> making happen. It is most interesting to tweak and adjust game play
> to get that 'in game' feel of a 'rock and roll' experience from the
> first turn to the last.
>
> I look forward, to EDEE and have been passing the links around
> various TBS boards.

The most significant difference between chess and all TBS's (especially
newer ones) is that chess takes place on the same "map" every time,
using the same numbers and types of pieces following all the same rules.
It should be fairly straightforward to make an AI that will rule on a
specific map with specific rules options. Essentially, every combination
of map, available units, and active rules options constitutes a separate
game unto itself.

The more versatile the maps and the more flexible the rules system of a
game, the harder it will be and the more effort it will take to create
an AI capable of adapting to the variance in terrain and rules. You can
always create an AI that can play the game, but you are faced with the
difficulty of creating an AI that can hold its own against the average
"human AI", which can adapt, learn, strategize, and engage in long-range
planning. About the only advantages a computer AI can have over a human
is attention to detail, single-mindedness, immunity to distraction, and
discipline. However, these are countered by a computer AI's greatest
weaknesses: difficulty of seeing "the big picture", imagination,
flexibility in dealing with multiple threats, and adaptiibility.

In ED current and recent past versions you could give the AI greater
production capability or enhanced combat odds. And you could play
against multiple AI's. So those are the ways today to give the AI
additional capabilities.

I quickly found that giving the AI increased production helped even
the odds.

I seldom play against the AI any more, but may use the AI(s) on a
large map game vs another human player just to add a little extra
unknown.

Randy

--- Matthias <matthias_mls@...> wrote:
> Enhance Unit Capabilities:
>
> -Make units faster/move farther
>
> -Make units fight with better probabilities
>
> -Make the computer player produce more of something
>
> Enhance Player Capabilities
>
> -Reveal the human player’s units
>
> -Reveal the hidden map
>
> -In tech tree game, they advance faster
>
> Other advantages
>
> -Computer players gang up on the human
>
>
>
> Will it be possible to grant AI players unilateral advantages such
> as these?
>





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There is of course much to be said about using or having the map
consistent. This cannot be over looked. Keeping to and designing maps
and starting positions that make it easy for the AI is often quite
critical to good AI performance.

That said and done by either direct creation of acceptable maps or by
tweaking a killer map generator is doable. The sweeping view,
strategies and imaginative play style are all having to be emulated
from the human. Even though chess is static, all the factors in TBS
are resolved eventually to static. It is time, attention and
programming that accounts for all the factors so as to function as
clever imagination. A hundred if/then with over-rides to account for
the moment and adding up totals to trigger a sweeping strategy. I
think it better to have the AI knowing everything and take advantage
of that information systematically. So where the human uses
intuition, the AI uses what if and 33% chance of acting on the god-
like info it will have.

Oh well, I simply welcome any opportunity to test my theories and
play thereby.

Antrine

Production and Combat handicaps will be there as before. Except those
handicaps have nothing to do with the conquest of neutrals as combat
advantage 3 did. Now there will be a separate "Neutral Handicap" to specify
how well you do against neutrals. This aids the benefiting player in
expansion, but not player to player combat.

Making units that are faster can be done via unit sets and allowable builds.
The caveat to this is that the AI must be aware of the unit types in order
to effectively use them. At least one AI DLL I release will be scripted to
where you can enter new unit types for various mission types and define the
rules of engagement for each unit. So some script preparation would be
required before such play. If one were to build a unit set with very unique
unit types, it may be that the AI will have to be recoded itself somewhat to
fully use those types in solitaire play.

The capability exists to be able to show map and enemy units on an
individual player basis, but I have not decided if that will be done as a
setup option. It does not quite fit well within the way the game is designed
and may present extra complications, so I am doubtful.

ED has no tech trees so nothing like this will be done.

Ganging up on human players would be an individual trait of the AI itself.
Human haters would have to be programmed. Currently the AI  I am programming
hates everybody. ;>

In regards to Matthias's  "Chess Board" comment, I would not at all be
surprised to see someone develop a specialized AI player that focuses on one
map, such as an EDEE version of "Big Earth". Or an AI that focuses on
archipelagos or a particular set of rules are assumed. To me the beauty is
that this can be done if one desires to do so. There are a great deal of
possibilities.

--Mark





----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy.R" <steyrhahn@...>
To: <empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [empire-deluxe] Cheating and Handicapping in EDIE and EDEE
(long post)


> In ED current and recent past versions you could give the AI greater
> production capability or enhanced combat odds. And you could play
> against multiple AI's. So those are the ways today to give the AI
> additional capabilities.
>
> I quickly found that giving the AI increased production helped even
> the odds.
>
> I seldom play against the AI any more, but may use the AI(s) on a
> large map game vs another human player just to add a little extra
> unknown.
>
> Randy
>
> --- Matthias <matthias_mls@...> wrote:
> > Enhance Unit Capabilities:
> >
> > -Make units faster/move farther
> >
> > -Make units fight with better probabilities
> >
> > -Make the computer player produce more of something
> >
> > Enhance Player Capabilities
> >
> > -Reveal the human player's units
> >
> > -Reveal the hidden map
> >
> > -In tech tree game, they advance faster
> >
> > Other advantages
> >
> > -Computer players gang up on the human
> >
> >
> >
> > Will it be possible to grant AI players unilateral advantages such
> > as these?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Kinkead @ Killer Bee Software

To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 1:21 PM

Subject: Re: [empire-deluxe] Cheating and Handicapping in EDIE and EDEE (long post)

Production and Combat handicaps will be there as before. Except those
handicaps have nothing to do with the conquest of neutrals as combat
advantage 3 did. Now there will be a separate "Neutral Handicap" to specify
how well you do against neutrals. This aids the benefiting player in
expansion, but not player to player combat.

Making units that are faster can be done via unit sets and allowable builds.
The caveat to this is that the AI must be aware of the unit types in order
to effectively use them. At least one AI DLL I release will be scripted to
where you can enter new unit types for various mission types and define the
rules of engagement for each unit. So some script preparation would be
required before such play. If one were to build a unit set with very unique
unit types, it may be that the AI will have to be recoded itself somewhat to
fully use those types in solitaire play.

The capability exists to be able to show map and enemy units on an
individual player basis, but I have not decided if that will be done as a
setup option. It does not quite fit well within the way the game is designed
and may present extra complications, so I am doubtful.

ED has no tech trees so nothing like this will be done.

Ganging up on human players would be an individual trait of the AI itself.
Human haters would have to be programmed. Currently the AI  I am programming
hates everybody. ;>

In regards to Matthias's  "Chess Board" comment, I would not at all be
surprised to see someone develop a specialized AI player that focuses on one
map, such as an EDEE version of "Big Earth". Or an AI that focuses on
archipelagos or a particular set of rules are assumed. To me the beauty is
that this can be done if one desires to do so. There are a great deal of
possibilities.

--Mark





----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy.R" <steyrhahn@...>
To: <empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [empire-deluxe] Cheating and Handicapping in EDIE and EDEE
(long post)


> In ED current and recent past versions you could give the AI greater
> production capability or enhanced combat odds. And you could play
> against multiple AI's. So those are the ways today to give the AI
> additional capabilities.
>
> I quickly found that giving the AI increased production helped even
> the odds.
>
> I seldom play against the AI any more, but may use the AI(s) on a
> large map game vs another human player just to add a little extra
> unknown.
>
> Randy
>
> --- Matthias <matthias_mls@...> wrote:
> > Enhance Unit Capabilities:
> >
> > -Make units faster/move farther
> >
> > -Make units fight with better probabilities
> >
> > -Make the computer player produce more of something
> >
> > Enhance Player Capabilities
> >
> > -Reveal the human player's units
> >
> > -Reveal the hidden map
> >
> > -In tech tree game, they advance faster
> >
> > Other advantages
> >
> > -Computer players gang up on the human
> >
> >
> >
> > Will it be possible to grant AI players unilateral advantages such
> > as these?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: SteveP @comcast

To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 3:36 PM

Subject: Re: [empire-deluxe] Cheating and Handicapping in EDIE and EDEE (long post)

It has been mentioned before, but will EDEE resign even when multiple AIs are still alive?  I play a lot of 5 AI and 1 human games on EDIE so it's frustrating when the game is beaten but it won't resign until only 1 AI remains.  The criteria could be if all the remaining AIs treated as a single player meets the resignation criteria, then it'll resign.

 

    - SteveP

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Kinkead @ Killer Bee Software

To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 1:21 PM

Subject: Re: [empire-deluxe] Cheating and Handicapping in EDIE and EDEE (long post)

Production and Combat handicaps will be there as before. Except those
handicaps have nothing to do with the conquest of neutrals as combat
advantage 3 did. Now there will be a separate "Neutral Handicap" to specify
how well you do against neutrals. This aids the benefiting player in
expansion, but not player to player combat.

Making units that are faster can be done via unit sets and allowable builds.
The caveat to this is that the AI must be aware of the unit types in order
to effectively use them. At least one AI DLL I release will be scripted to
where you can enter new unit types for various mission types and define the
rules of engagement for each unit. So some script preparation would be
required before such play. If one were to build a unit set with very unique
unit types, it may be that the AI will have to be recoded itself somewhat to
fully use those types in solitaire play.

The capability exists to be able to show map and enemy units on an
individual player basis, but I have not decided if that will be done as a
setup option. It does not quite fit well within the way the game is designed
and may present extra complications, so I am doubtful.

ED has no tech trees so nothing like this will be done.

Ganging up on human players would be an individual trait of the AI itself.
Human haters would have to be programmed. Currently the AI  I am programming
hates everybody. ;>

In regards to Matthias's  "Chess Board" comment, I would not at all be
surprised to see someone develop a specialized AI player that focuses on one
map, such as an EDEE version of "Big Earth". Or an AI that focuses on
archipelagos or a particular set of rules are assumed. To me the beauty is
that this can be done if one desires to do so. There are a great deal of
possibilities.

--Mark





----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy.R" <steyrhahn@...>
To: <empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [empire-deluxe] Cheating and Handicapping in EDIE and EDEE
(long post)


> In ED current and recent past versions you could give the AI greater
> production capability or enhanced combat odds. And you could play
> against multiple AI's. So those are the ways today to give the AI
> additional capabilities.
>
> I quickly found that giving the AI increased production helped even
> the odds.
>
> I seldom play against the AI any more, but may use the AI(s) on a
> large map game vs another human player just to add a little extra
> unknown.
>
> Randy
>
> --- Matthias <matthias_mls@...> wrote:
> > Enhance Unit Capabilities:
> >
> > -Make units faster/move farther
> >
> > -Make units fight with better probabilities
> >
> > -Make the computer player produce more of something
> >
> > Enhance Player Capabilities
> >
> > -Reveal the human player's units
> >
> > -Reveal the hidden map
> >
> > -In tech tree game, they advance faster
> >
> > Other advantages
> >
> > -Computer players gang up on the human
> >
> >
> >
> > Will it be possible to grant AI players unilateral advantages such
> > as these?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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----- Original Message -----

From: Gryphin Rampant

To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 6:17 AM

Subject: RE: [empire-deluxe] Do computer players cheat?

I have to agree with both previous posts.

1) I don't know if they are cheating but I don't mind if they are.

2) I have never seen any evidence of the type you are referring to.

3) The cost of creating an AI that can consistently beat humans is off the scale of affordable.

 

 

Lets take a few classic 4X games:

Civ I and II, Moo I and II, SE III and IV

In all of those cases it did not take me, (and I isn't exactly the fastest chip on the board), about 10 to 50 hours before I consistently beat the AI.

Non of them cost more than $50.

 

 

Let's look at the cost of a programmers time.

$50 to $100 an hour (including overhead)

How many hours will it require to create an AI that could consistently beat humans?

How many copies at what price can a company sell?

 

 

I personally would probably pay $100 to $200 for a game as complex as EDIE with an AI that could beat me.  For a game as complex as EDEE may be I think I would pay upwards of $500. If I played it 10 hours a week every week it would come out to $1 an hour.  That is pretty cheap entertainment.  How many other gamers would pay that much?  Not too many I think.

 

i think you guys are whinning way too much over and
excellent game...

i also say you guys are full of horse hooey
that you are consistent in beating 5 computer players
with adv +3 and you at extreme dis adv. on Combat AND
production values... gimme a break...

thats why you have those adjustable settings to make the
game interesting for those of you who just turn the game
on and go "AS IS"...and go with a full map not some
100 x 100 generic rookie map....

there is a map editor with the game... use your brain
and make some impossible scenarios....ya thats right
use your college degree for the first time since you got it...

sorry Mark K.  ...

im tired of THEM whinning about this and that on a great game...
if they actually found some errors that would be productive....

grrrrr...

Hey grrrrr...

Old son, I think you have missed the point of the
whole discussion. No one is whinging or bagging the
game? If you look back at this whole thread, the issue
is
- How good is the AI?
- Does it cheat to do what is does (I think only two
people has put a specific suspicious scenario where
the AI seemed to do exceptionally well in one specific
instance?
- Can we do any better with the AI design because the
current system is tactical and not strategic?

In fact I think most of us (amateurs and the one
professional) who dabble with AI are looking forward
to what Mark will offer with EDEE which allows
experimentation. Currently the unit designers and map
builders can have endless fun just fiddling. EDEE will
gives some of the rest of us a new toy to play with.
This of course is in addition to actually playing the
game.

All in all I think people are just twiddling their
thumbs while Mark puts on the polish for EDEE rev 1.
No one is whining or complaining about ED.

Somehow this funny, old and little game has endless
appeal for all sorts of people for all sorts of
reasons.

Cheers

A


--- dtsdesign <dtsdesign@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
i think you guys are whinning way too much over and
excellent game...

i also say you guys are full of horse hooey
that you are consistent in beating 5 computer players
with adv +3 and you at extreme dis adv. on Combat AND
production values... gimme a break...

thats why you have those adjustable settings to make
the
game interesting for those of you who just turn the
game
on and go "AS IS"...and go with a full map not some
100 x 100 generic rookie map....

there is a map editor with the game... use your brain
and make some impossible scenarios....ya thats right
use your college degree for the first time since you
got it...

sorry Mark K.  ...

im tired of THEM whinning about this and that on a
great game...
if they actually found some errors that would be
productive....

grrrrr...



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