Many people are searching for Computer Programs to run Blind Draws.
    Margaret Martell W.C.I. has been operating random draws since 1988.
we have programs for up to 512 participants, with our most popular ones, 8 to 64
Double Elimination, and 8 to 48 Round Robin Format.
    Our programs are written in Open Office Portable, so they can be run on a
thumb drive with their own operating system.  They will run on most flavors of
Microsoft or Linux.
    We also have programs to schedule & run Dart leagues.  Many can be adapted to
any league rules, and can be customized for the dart league.
A 48 team league can be handled in as little as 2 hours. Most of our leagues are
online, including Reporting, Results, Rules, Sign-Ups, & Payment of Dues. We use
PayPal for security.
    We can be contacted at margaretmartell@...

Hey Everyone, D.K. Joe, I got the copy of the wintour software, but I am having
a little trouble figuring it out, Could you please help me out and explain how
it works, or how to use it. I am heavily involved in the Cleveland Darter Club
in Cleveland Ohio, and I have several uses for the application, but I need to
know hoiw to use it. Thanks for any help. Happy Holidays
Jon




--- In darttournaments@yahoogroups.com, "d. k. joe" <habanerojuice@...> wrote:
>
> For anybody looking for this software, I have a copy of Wintour version
4.3.02.
>

Hello Folks,

The Holiday Season is just about upon us, and I'm sure that everyone is very busy, but I would like to take this opportunity to remind you all of the Holiday Charity events that will be happening over the next few weeks. There will be Food Share Food Drives at the Bench Warmer and Butera's Billiards. The entry fee for these Blind Draw tournaments will be $10 and at least 2 non perishable food items (cash donations will also be accepted).

Also again this year Bobby Cobb will be hosting a "Toys For Tots" toy drive at the Bench Warmer. The Blind Draw Tournament entry fee will be $10 and a Toy worth at least $10(cash donations will also be accepted).

If you can't make it to any of these events, please spread the word to everyone you know about these events and send along you contribution.

VCDA Fall 2009 Charitable Events:

http://vcda.org/events.html


11/21/2009 Saturday 2:00 PM Food Share Turkey Shoot @ Bench Warmer
$10.00 and 2 nonperishable food items.
Bench Warmer

12/5/2009 Saturday 2:00 PM Food Share Turkey Shoot @ Butera's Billiards
$10.00 and 2 nonperishable food items.
Butera's Billiards

12/12/2009 Saturday 2:00 PM Toys for Tots Toy Drive @ Bench Warmer
$10.00 and a toy of $10.00 value or more.
Bench Warmer

Well Said Kevin.

BTW:  The ADA has always had steel tip.  They aren't just about soft tip.

Shoot well everyone!



--- In darttournaments@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <goldenharvestdarts@...> wrote:
>
> Absolutely I agree and which is why I built a singles league in steel tip,
> designed similar to the ADA soft tip approach with PPDA's and handicaps and
> so forth.  The main "complaint" from people was the transposing of data from
> the chalkboard to a scoresheet to hand in, which is where the electronic
> technology comes in.  I also agree in today's world that the almighty $$$ is
> what talks and why the ADA exploded like it did, from appealing to all
> levels of players to creating businesses from the sport and building the
> sponsorships from those numbers……..perfectly executed !!!  Also did not hurt
> that many laws were passed banning steel tip darts in bars as "weapons"
> (LOL).
>
> I think you are right that darts is one of those sports where we will never
> get to a one/world organization, heck we can't even get the PDC/BDO or  half
> a dozen other organizations to agree, but what the ADA did was to "control
> the playing field" which was the key, unlike steel tip where any pub can put
> up a board and a league can be created with it's own rules.
>
> What I believe is that we ALL lose out until the leagues/members all come
> together under one umbrella, we will never realize the full potential of
> sponsors/TV/etc. that we could as a massive collective group.
>
>
>
> But at least everyone is passionate enough about the sport that it continues
> to survive and be driven by those who love/care about it and all the fellow
> members, in all leagues.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:darttournaments@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of heyitsgary
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:15 PM
> To: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Dart Tournaments] The future of dart score tracking?
>
>
>
>
>
> Kevin - I'll agree to disagree on the importance of chalking as a learning
> tool. One of several methods which I do agree with you on the others. Its
> not the only way to learn but hands on sure does help, IMHO.
>
> My point on soft tip was that the technology to do everything being talked
> about is built into the machines themselves. There's backing for that,
> because the board manufactures make $$ for every game played. The are vested
> in making it work and pushing new boundaries. It wasn't to start a soft vs.
> steel debate - sorry if it came across that way.
>
> On the steel tip side- Almost everything you talked about doing are things
> the ADA has done - for 20 or so years? They standardized a match format,
> scoring methods, paperwork, reporting and the like. They don't have
> automated scoring. Players have a rating, and its transferrable between
> leagues, tournaments, rankings, whatever. That single number for each person
> allows everything you are looking for to happen.
>
> The backing for all of those things - the ADA. Why, they make $$ for each
> match played. The leagues/areas are franchised, so the more people, the more
> teams, the more the ADA makes and the more they can spend to develop systems
> and scoring tools and databases and eveything else.
>
> For non-ADA steel tip leagues? There are hundreds (thousands?) of dart
> leagues that are independent. Some may have the same format as others, by
> chance or people moving and bringing new ideas to different leagues. You'd
> need a governing body to do the things listed. The ADA is one of those
> bodies, and they have done those things. The ADO is another, and they
> haven't done those things. (I don't want to start an ADO thread either btw.)
>
> Unfortunately, I just see the continuation of leagues (or groups of leagues)
> and individuals (or groups like this forum) as the method that techonology
> will spread, as individual leagues will find what works for them. Do I think
> thats the best thing for the sport, NO, but I think that's what will
> continue.
>
> For chalking, get a DartMaster for $300. You or anyone else won't have to
> stand there. That removes the person, but not the chalking.
>
> Gary
>
> BTW: Sorry to hear you got hit by an errant dart while chalking. While
> unfortunate in your case, its probably a 1 in a multi-million occurrence,
> and probably not indicative of any real danger associated to chalking.
>
> --- In darttournaments@ <mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <goldenharvestdarts@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > There are many pros/cons that can be discussed when one gets into the
> > chalking of one's scores and learning the finer aspects of the game, but I
> > would propose that should be covered by "coaching" or "learning" the game
> as
> > most of us have done. Take any other sport (granted the scoring is far
> less
> > important than in darts) but nobody spends time on the math/scoring in
> other
> > sports.
> > I did not want to open up a debate around chalking or around steel vs
> soft,
> > but rather to look to the future and the possibilities that are just
> around
> > the corner from us now.
> > No more chalk/walk or hunting for chalkers/chaulkers, no more chalkers
> > getting stuck with a bounced dart (I had one go through my thigh while
> > chalking and wound up hitting an artery....took the fun out of that
> night),
> > but also that steel tip could then utilize the PPDA like soft tip and
> build
> > a whole new aspect to their game. Imagine having provincial/state
> > championships or even nationals or worlds in brackets determined by PPDA
> (so
> > even beginner players could make it through competitions) and with that
> > caveat to draw players in, the numbers/members could explode (along with
> > those that find math/chalking a challenge).
> > You could have Handicap events and team max ppda's for
> doubles/triples/etc.
> > and on and on.
> > I see the technology and data being a potential to really open up the
> sport
> > and expand immensely/rapidly, similar to what the soft-tip explosion did.
> > Then the numbers bring sponsors and sponsors bring cash and cash brings
> more
> > players/members and so forth.
> > Do I hear Olympics ??
> >
> > Good darting to all.........and may they fly straight/true !!!
> >
> > Kevin Thorsteinson
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: darttournaments@ <mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:darttournaments@ <mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of heyitsgary
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:24 AM
> > To: darttournaments@ <mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Dart Tournaments] The future of dart score tracking?
> >
> >
> >
> > Charles-
> >
> > I changed the subject to reflect this as a seperate conversation.
> >
> > As Kevin said, and was responded to. The future is wide open for darts and
> > technology. The significant difference between soft and steel is the
> > integration of technology on the soft tip side. Everything is built into
> the
> > machines, the players need to do nothing other than identify themselves
> when
> > they play a match. Thats probably a big benefit in the soft tip world to
> the
> > players, and offers the organizers, tournament directors, maunfacturers
> all
> > kinds of data to sift through to drive that side of the sport.
> >
> > I disagree with the automation of scoring, etc... You wouldn't expect a
> > player in any other sport to not understand how to score? (A football team
> > down by 6 kicks a field goal with no time left. They all start dancing
> > thinking they've won, but in reality, they still lost by 3. /end sarcasm).
> I
> > also think that the basic ability to chalk a match helps directly in being
> > able to shoot a match. The more you work with the numbers, the more you
> > recognize patterns, outshots, etc... Its not just about writing the
> numbers
> > on the board. Chalking is a great way for new players to understand and
> > learn instead than sitting at the bar with a beer.
> >
> > As for atutomated scoresheets. I think there are two components here. The
> > first is the easy part. It requires some basic software development
> skills.
> > I bet some of the leagues represented here have some automated scoring
> > systems, depending on the general computer user expertise and comfort
> within
> > their leagues. Not many, but some. I know that QCEDL in Philly has a way
> to
> > retrieve scores from a text message. I wouldn't be suprised if Mike B
> there
> > is working on a way to enter them too. There's been a few posts of people
> > using some localized technology in this thread. When I was secretary of
> our
> > league, I used Access to track a lot of things. The next secretary wasn't
> so
> > computer savvy, so he used a simple Excel document. Either way, the
> results
> > and information go to the players in the league.
> >
> > The bigger problem I see is the lack of consistency from league to league.
> > The ADA has solve this with a specific format, which makes their online
> tool
> > work. Its the same for everyone (or a few variants I'd guess for the
> > Equalizer, Open and Express formats). You can get a specific match sheet
> > from any league, anywhere. Without ANY form of consistent league formats,
> > there can't be an automated system in place on a wide scale use. There are
> > sites like leaguerepublic.com that offer the basics. I believe you can put
> > in just the match scores, but don't get the details like the ADA.
> >
> > Basically, I think it comes down to each independent league doing what
> makes
> > sense for them. Those that have the resources to do, will. Those that
> don't,
> > won't. That, or until someone sells a configurable online score tracking
> > system that allows the players to input their weekly data and reports
> back.
> >
> > --- In darttournaments@ <mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com> , Charles Cafferata
> > <asstrotep@> wrote:
> > >
> > > If the game does go electronic, even to the point of push a button andÂ
> it
> > automates the scoring on a TV screen (and who doesn't have one near a
> board
> > in their pub), it would open the game to tons of new players who aren't
> > proficient in math or don't understand the rules as tournament players
> > would.
> > >
> > > I would love to see a program that would print an HTML report in such a
> > way that it could be used online by the team captain or league
> > commissioner (by login) to enter in tournament results or league match
> > info and have it automatically update to a website.
> > > Â
> > > Charles "Asstro" Cafferata, Jr.
> > > Tau Epsilon Phi, Ep. Theta 473
> > > "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path
> and
> > leave a trail."
> > > Ralph Waldo EmersonÂ
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Kevin <goldenharvestdarts@>
> > > To: darttournaments@ <mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 12:56:12 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Dart Tournaments] Luck of the Draw Randomizer
> > >
> > > Â
> > > Spreadsheets to handle brackets, pools, draws, mixed blind and/or seeded
> > along with other functionality like PPDA and so forth have long been a
> huge
> > benefit to running dart leagues and tournaments and as one who has been
> > writing and using for over a decade (started with Lotus 1-2-3 and now use
> > Excel), I am still waiting for the future of the sport to move towards
> where
> > I believe it should move in the future, with full electronic scoring that
> > will open up a huge data dimension to the sport, similar to that which
> > softtip darts has used/known about for years. One day we will probably
> > find that the two sports can/will merge under a common umbrella as
> > technology gets better and better.
> > > Â
> > > Kevin Thorsteinson
> > >
> >
>

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 2nd 7:00pm

Blind Draw Handicap Hi/Low

PV BOWL

24600 Crenshaw Blvd, Torrance

(310) 326-5120

Kevin -  I'll agree to disagree on the importance of chalking as a learning
tool.  One of several methods which I do agree with you on the others.  Its not
the only way to learn but hands on sure does help, IMHO.

My point on soft tip was that the technology to do everything being talked about
is built into the machines themselves. There's backing for that, because the
board manufactures make $$ for every game played.  The are vested in making it
work and pushing new boundaries.  It wasn't to start a soft vs. steel debate -
sorry if it came across that way.

On the steel tip side- Almost everything you talked about doing are things the
ADA has done - for 20 or so years?  They standardized a match format, scoring
methods, paperwork, reporting and the like.  They don't have automated scoring. 
Players have a rating, and its transferrable between leagues, tournaments,
rankings, whatever.  That single number for each person allows everything you
are looking for to happen.

The backing for all of those things - the ADA.  Why, they make $$ for each match
played.  The leagues/areas are franchised, so the more people, the more teams,
the more the ADA makes and the more they can spend to develop systems and
scoring tools and databases and eveything else.

For non-ADA steel tip leagues?  There are hundreds (thousands?) of dart leagues
that are independent.  Some may have the same format as others, by chance or
people moving and bringing new ideas to different leagues.  You'd need a
governing body to do the things listed.  The ADA is one of those bodies, and
they have done those things.  The ADO is another, and they haven't done those
things.  (I don't want to start an ADO thread either btw.)

Unfortunately, I just see the continuation of leagues (or groups of leagues) and
individuals (or groups like this forum) as the method that techonology will
spread, as individual leagues will find what works for them.  Do I think thats
the best thing for the sport, NO, but I think that's what will continue.

For chalking, get a DartMaster for $300.  You or anyone else won't have to stand
there. That removes the person, but not the chalking.

Gary

BTW:  Sorry to hear you got hit by an errant dart while chalking.  While
unfortunate in your case, its probably a 1 in a multi-million occurrence, and
probably not indicative of any real danger associated to chalking.



--- In darttournaments@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <goldenharvestdarts@...> wrote:
>
>
> There are many pros/cons that can be discussed when one gets into the
> chalking of one's scores and learning the finer aspects of the game, but I
> would propose that should be covered by "coaching" or "learning" the game as
> most of us have done.  Take any other sport (granted the scoring is far less
> important than in darts) but nobody spends time on the math/scoring in other
> sports.
> I did not want to open up a debate around chalking or around steel vs soft,
> but rather to look to the future and the possibilities that are just around
> the corner from us now.
> No more chalk/walk or hunting for chalkers/chaulkers, no more chalkers
> getting stuck with a bounced dart (I had one go through my thigh while
> chalking and wound up hitting an artery....took the fun out of that night),
> but also that steel tip could then utilize the PPDA like soft tip and build
> a whole new aspect to their game.  Imagine having provincial/state
> championships or even nationals or worlds in brackets determined by PPDA (so
> even beginner players could make it through competitions) and with that
> caveat to draw players in, the numbers/members could explode (along with
> those that find math/chalking a challenge).
> You could have Handicap events and team max ppda's for doubles/triples/etc.
> and on and on.
> I see the technology and data being a potential to really open up the sport
> and expand immensely/rapidly, similar to what the soft-tip explosion did.
> Then the numbers bring sponsors and sponsors bring cash and cash brings more
> players/members and so forth.
> Do I hear Olympics ??
>
> Good darting to all.........and may they fly straight/true !!!
>
> Kevin Thorsteinson
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:darttournaments@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of heyitsgary
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:24 AM
> To: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Dart Tournaments] The future of dart score tracking?
>
>
>
> Charles-
>
> I changed the subject to reflect this as a seperate conversation.
>
> As Kevin said, and was responded to. The future is wide open for darts and
> technology. The significant difference between soft and steel is the
> integration of technology on the soft tip side. Everything is built into the
> machines, the players need to do nothing other than identify themselves when
> they play a match. Thats probably a big benefit in the soft tip world to the
> players, and offers the organizers, tournament directors, maunfacturers all
> kinds of data to sift through to drive that side of the sport.
>
> I disagree with the automation of scoring, etc... You wouldn't expect a
> player in any other sport to not understand how to score? (A football team
> down by 6 kicks a field goal with no time left. They all start dancing
> thinking they've won, but in reality, they still lost by 3. /end sarcasm). I
> also think that the basic ability to chalk a match helps directly in being
> able to shoot a match. The more you work with the numbers, the more you
> recognize patterns, outshots, etc... Its not just about writing the numbers
> on the board. Chalking is a great way for new players to understand and
> learn instead than sitting at the bar with a beer.
>
> As for atutomated scoresheets. I think there are two components here. The
> first is the easy part. It requires some basic software development skills.
> I bet some of the leagues represented here have some automated scoring
> systems, depending on the general computer user expertise and comfort within
> their leagues. Not many, but some. I know that QCEDL in Philly has a way to
> retrieve scores from a text message. I wouldn't be suprised if Mike B there
> is working on a way to enter them too. There's been a few posts of people
> using some localized technology in this thread. When I was secretary of our
> league, I used Access to track a lot of things. The next secretary wasn't so
> computer savvy, so he used a simple Excel document. Either way, the results
> and information go to the players in the league.
>
> The bigger problem I see is the lack of consistency from league to league.
> The ADA has solve this with a specific format, which makes their online tool
> work. Its the same for everyone (or a few variants I'd guess for the
> Equalizer, Open and Express formats). You can get a specific match sheet
> from any league, anywhere. Without ANY form of consistent league formats,
> there can't be an automated system in place on a wide scale use. There are
> sites like leaguerepublic.com that offer the basics. I believe you can put
> in just the match scores, but don't get the details like the ADA.
>
> Basically, I think it comes down to each independent league doing what makes
> sense for them. Those that have the resources to do, will. Those that don't,
> won't. That, or until someone sells a configurable online score tracking
> system that allows the players to input their weekly data and reports back.
>
> --- In darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com> , Charles Cafferata
> <asstrotep@> wrote:
> >
> > If the game does go electronic, even to the point of push a button and it
> automates the scoring on a TV screen (and who doesn't have one near a board
> in their pub), it would open the game to tons of new players who aren't
> proficient in math or don't understand the rules as tournament players
> would.
> >
> > I would love to see a program that would print an HTML report in such a
> way that it could be used online by the team captain or league
> commissioner (by login) to enter in tournament results or league match
> info and have it automatically update to a website.
> > Â
> > Charles "Asstro" Cafferata, Jr.
> > Tau Epsilon Phi, Ep. Theta 473
> > "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and
> leave a trail."
> > Ralph Waldo EmersonÂ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Kevin <goldenharvestdarts@>
> > To: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 12:56:12 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Dart Tournaments] Luck of the Draw Randomizer
> >
> > Â
> > Spreadsheets to handle brackets, pools, draws, mixed blind and/or seeded
> along with other functionality like PPDA and so forth have long been a huge
> benefit to running dart leagues and tournaments and as one who has been
> writing and using for over a decade (started with Lotus 1-2-3 and now use
> Excel), I am still waiting for the future of the sport to move towards where
> I believe it should move in the future, with full electronic scoring that
> will open up a huge data dimension to the sport, similar to that which
> softtip darts has used/known about for years.  One day we will probably
> find that the two sports can/will merge under a common umbrella as
> technology gets better and better.
> > Â
> > Kevin Thorsteinson
> >
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Kevin

To: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 11:50 PM

Subject: RE: [Dart Tournaments] The future of dart score tracking?

 

There are many pros/cons that can be discussed when one gets into the
chalking of one's scores and learning the finer aspects of the game, but I
would propose that should be covered by "coaching" or "learning" the game as
most of us have done. Take any other sport (granted the scoring is far less
important than in darts) but nobody spends time on the math/scoring in other
sports.
I did not want to open up a debate around chalking or around steel vs soft,
but rather to look to the future and the possibilities that are just around
the corner from us now.
No more chalk/walk or hunting for chalkers/chaulkers, no more chalkers
getting stuck with a bounced dart (I had one go through my thigh while
chalking and wound up hitting an artery....took the fun out of that night),
but also that steel tip could then utilize the PPDA like soft tip and build
a whole new aspect to their game. Imagine having provincial/state
championships or even nationals or worlds in brackets determined by PPDA (so
even beginner players could make it through competitions) and with that
caveat to draw players in, the numbers/members could explode (along with
those that find math/chalking a challenge).
You could have Handicap events and team max ppda's for doubles/triples/etc.
and on and on.
I see the technology and data being a potential to really open up the sport
and expand immensely/rapidly, similar to what the soft-tip explosion did.
Then the numbers bring sponsors and sponsors bring cash and cash brings more
players/members and so forth.
Do I hear Olympics ??

Good darting to all.........and may they fly straight/true !!!

Kevin Thorsteinson

-----Original Message-----
From: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:darttournaments@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of heyitsgary
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:24 AM
To: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Dart Tournaments] The future of dart score tracking?

Charles-

I changed the subject to reflect this as a seperate conversation.

As Kevin said, and was responded to. The future is wide open for darts and
technology. The significant difference between soft and steel is the
integration of technology on the soft tip side. Everything is built into the
machines, the players need to do nothing other than identify themselves when
they play a match. Thats probably a big benefit in the soft tip world to the
players, and offers the organizers, tournament directors, maunfacturers all
kinds of data to sift through to drive that side of the sport.

I disagree with the automation of scoring, etc... You wouldn't expect a
player in any other sport to not understand how to score? (A football team
down by 6 kicks a field goal with no time left. They all start dancing
thinking they've won, but in reality, they still lost by 3. /end sarcasm). I
also think that the basic ability to chalk a match helps directly in being
able to shoot a match. The more you work with the numbers, the more you
recognize patterns, outshots, etc... Its not just about writing the numbers
on the board. Chalking is a great way for new players to understand and
learn instead than sitting at the bar with a beer.

As for atutomated scoresheets. I think there are two components here. The
first is the easy part. It requires some basic software development skills.
I bet some of the leagues represented here have some automated scoring
systems, depending on the general computer user expertise and comfort within
their leagues. Not many, but some. I know that QCEDL in Philly has a way to
retrieve scores from a text message. I wouldn't be suprised if Mike B there
is working on a way to enter them too. There's been a few posts of people
using some localized technology in this thread. When I was secretary of our
league, I used Access to track a lot of things. The next secretary wasn't so
computer savvy, so he used a simple Excel document. Either way, the results
and information go to the players in the league.

The bigger problem I see is the lack of consistency from league to league.
The ADA has solve this with a specific format, which makes their online tool
work. Its the same for everyone (or a few variants I'd guess for the
Equalizer, Open and Express formats). You can get a specific match sheet
from any league, anywhere. Without ANY form of consistent league formats,
there can't be an automated system in place on a wide scale use. There are
sites like leaguerepublic.com that offer the basics. I believe you can put
in just the match scores, but don't get the details like the ADA.

Basically, I think it comes down to each independent league doing what makes
sense for them. Those that have the resources to do, will. Those that don't,
won't. That, or until someone sells a configurable online score tracking
system that allows the players to input their weekly data and reports back.

--- In darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com> , Charles Cafferata
<asstrotep@...> wrote:
>
> If the game does go electronic, even to the point of push a button and it
automates the scoring on a TV screen (and who doesn't have one near a board
in their pub), it would open the game to tons of new players who aren't
proficient in math or don't understand the rules as tournament players
would.
>
> I would love to see a program that would print an HTML report in such a
way that it could be used online by the team captain or league
commissioner (by login) to enter in tournament results or league match
info and have it automatically update to a website.
> Â
> Charles "Asstro" Cafferata, Jr.
> Tau Epsilon Phi, Ep. Theta 473
> "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."
> Ralph Waldo EmersonÂ
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kevin <goldenharvestdarts@...>
> To: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 12:56:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dart Tournaments] Luck of the Draw Randomizer
>
> Â
> Spreadsheets to handle brackets, pools, draws, mixed blind and/or seeded
along with other functionality like PPDA and so forth have long been a huge
benefit to running dart leagues and tournaments and as one who has been
writing and using for over a decade (started with Lotus 1-2-3 and now use
Excel), I am still waiting for the future of the sport to move towards where
I believe it should move in the future, with full electronic scoring that
will open up a huge data dimension to the sport, similar to that which
softtip darts has used/known about for years. One day we will probably
find that the two sports can/will merge under a common umbrella as
technology gets better and better.
> Â
> Kevin Thorsteinson
>

There are many pros/cons that can be discussed when one gets into the
chalking of one's scores and learning the finer aspects of the game, but I
would propose that should be covered by "coaching" or "learning" the game as
most of us have done.  Take any other sport (granted the scoring is far less
important than in darts) but nobody spends time on the math/scoring in other
sports.
I did not want to open up a debate around chalking or around steel vs soft,
but rather to look to the future and the possibilities that are just around
the corner from us now.
No more chalk/walk or hunting for chalkers/chaulkers, no more chalkers
getting stuck with a bounced dart (I had one go through my thigh while
chalking and wound up hitting an artery....took the fun out of that night),
but also that steel tip could then utilize the PPDA like soft tip and build
a whole new aspect to their game.  Imagine having provincial/state
championships or even nationals or worlds in brackets determined by PPDA (so
even beginner players could make it through competitions) and with that
caveat to draw players in, the numbers/members could explode (along with
those that find math/chalking a challenge).
You could have Handicap events and team max ppda's for doubles/triples/etc.
and on and on.
I see the technology and data being a potential to really open up the sport
and expand immensely/rapidly, similar to what the soft-tip explosion did.
Then the numbers bring sponsors and sponsors bring cash and cash brings more
players/members and so forth.
Do I hear Olympics ??

Good darting to all.........and may they fly straight/true !!!

Kevin Thorsteinson


-----Original Message-----
From: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:darttournaments@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of heyitsgary
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:24 AM
To: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Dart Tournaments] The future of dart score tracking?



Charles-

I changed the subject to reflect this as a seperate conversation.

As Kevin said, and was responded to. The future is wide open for darts and
technology. The significant difference between soft and steel is the
integration of technology on the soft tip side. Everything is built into the
machines, the players need to do nothing other than identify themselves when
they play a match. Thats probably a big benefit in the soft tip world to the
players, and offers the organizers, tournament directors, maunfacturers all
kinds of data to sift through to drive that side of the sport.

I disagree with the automation of scoring, etc... You wouldn't expect a
player in any other sport to not understand how to score? (A football team
down by 6 kicks a field goal with no time left. They all start dancing
thinking they've won, but in reality, they still lost by 3. /end sarcasm). I
also think that the basic ability to chalk a match helps directly in being
able to shoot a match. The more you work with the numbers, the more you
recognize patterns, outshots, etc... Its not just about writing the numbers
on the board. Chalking is a great way for new players to understand and
learn instead than sitting at the bar with a beer.

As for atutomated scoresheets. I think there are two components here. The
first is the easy part. It requires some basic software development skills.
I bet some of the leagues represented here have some automated scoring
systems, depending on the general computer user expertise and comfort within
their leagues. Not many, but some. I know that QCEDL in Philly has a way to
retrieve scores from a text message. I wouldn't be suprised if Mike B there
is working on a way to enter them too. There's been a few posts of people
using some localized technology in this thread. When I was secretary of our
league, I used Access to track a lot of things. The next secretary wasn't so
computer savvy, so he used a simple Excel document. Either way, the results
and information go to the players in the league.

The bigger problem I see is the lack of consistency from league to league.
The ADA has solve this with a specific format, which makes their online tool
work. Its the same for everyone (or a few variants I'd guess for the
Equalizer, Open and Express formats). You can get a specific match sheet
from any league, anywhere. Without ANY form of consistent league formats,
there can't be an automated system in place on a wide scale use. There are
sites like leaguerepublic.com that offer the basics. I believe you can put
in just the match scores, but don't get the details like the ADA.

Basically, I think it comes down to each independent league doing what makes
sense for them. Those that have the resources to do, will. Those that don't,
won't. That, or until someone sells a configurable online score tracking
system that allows the players to input their weekly data and reports back.

--- In darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com> , Charles Cafferata
<asstrotep@...> wrote:
>
> If the game does go electronic, even to the point of push a button and it
automates the scoring on a TV screen (and who doesn't have one near a board
in their pub), it would open the game to tons of new players who aren't
proficient in math or don't understand the rules as tournament players
would.
>
> I would love to see a program that would print an HTML report in such a
way that it could be used online by the team captain or league
commissioner (by login) to enter in tournament results or league match
info and have it automatically update to a website.
> Â
> Charles "Asstro" Cafferata, Jr.
> Tau Epsilon Phi, Ep. Theta 473
> "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."
> Ralph Waldo EmersonÂ
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kevin <goldenharvestdarts@...>
> To: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:darttournaments%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 12:56:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dart Tournaments] Luck of the Draw Randomizer
>
> Â
> Spreadsheets to handle brackets, pools, draws, mixed blind and/or seeded
along with other functionality like PPDA and so forth have long been a huge
benefit to running dart leagues and tournaments and as one who has been
writing and using for over a decade (started with Lotus 1-2-3 and now use
Excel), I am still waiting for the future of the sport to move towards where
I believe it should move in the future, with full electronic scoring that
will open up a huge data dimension to the sport, similar to that which
softtip darts has used/known about for years.  One day we will probably
find that the two sports can/will merge under a common umbrella as
technology gets better and better.
> Â
> Kevin Thorsteinson
>

Everyone -

Please listen...  Yahoo Groups strips your email address when you post it in a
message.  This is probably good as it prevents spamming by bots and other
maliciously intented purposes.

Therefore, posting your email in here doesn't do you or me any good.

Send me an email from with Yahoo Groups to me.  Then I'll have your email (for
the purpose of sending the file and informing you of changes).  If you don't
email me, I won't be able to respond to you and attach the files.

I thought about posting in the files section, and might in the future if I get
enough feedback and think the file is completed.  I've probably got a few
revisions still to make it better and bulletproof it to the point where it
really is self sufficient.

Thanks!  Gary

Charles-

I changed the subject to reflect this as a seperate conversation.

As Kevin said, and was responded to.  The future is wide open for darts and
technology.  The significant difference between soft and steel is the
integration of technology on the soft tip side.  Everything is built into the
machines, the players need to do nothing other than identify themselves when
they play a match.  Thats probably a big benefit in the soft tip world to the
players, and offers the organizers, tournament directors, maunfacturers all
kinds of data to sift through to drive that side of the sport.

I disagree with the automation of scoring, etc...  You wouldn't expect a player
in any other sport to not understand how to score? (A football team down by 6
kicks a field goal with no time left.  They all start dancing thinking they've
won, but in reality, they still lost by 3. /end sarcasm). I also think that the
basic ability to chalk a match helps directly in being able to shoot a match. 
The more you work with the numbers, the more you recognize patterns, outshots,
etc...  Its not just about writing the numbers on the board.  Chalking is a
great way for new players to understand and learn instead than sitting at the
bar with a beer.

As for atutomated scoresheets.  I think there are two components here.  The
first is the easy part.  It requires some basic software development skills.  I
bet some of the leagues represented here have some automated scoring systems,
depending on the general computer user expertise and comfort within their
leagues.   Not many, but some.  I know that QCEDL in Philly has a way to
retrieve scores from a text message.  I wouldn't be suprised if Mike B there is
working on a way to enter them too.  There's been a few posts of people using
some localized technology in this thread.  When I was secretary of our league, I
used Access to track a lot of things.  The next secretary wasn't so computer
savvy, so he used a simple Excel document.  Either way, the results and
information go to the players in the league.

The bigger problem I see is the lack of consistency from league to league.  The
ADA has solve this with a specific format, which makes their online tool work. 
Its the same for everyone (or a few variants I'd guess for the Equalizer, Open
and Express formats).  You can get a specific match sheet from any league,
anywhere.  Without ANY form of consistent league formats, there can't be an
automated system in place on a wide scale use.   There are sites like
leaguerepublic.com that offer the basics.  I believe you can put in just the
match scores, but don't get the details like the ADA.

Basically, I think it comes down to each independent league doing what makes
sense for them.   Those that have the resources to do, will.  Those that don't,
won't.  That, or until someone sells a configurable online score tracking system
that allows the players to input their weekly data and reports back.



--- In darttournaments@yahoogroups.com, Charles Cafferata <asstrotep@...> wrote:
>
> If the game does go electronic, even to the point of push a button and it
automates the scoring on a TV screen (and who doesn't have one near a board in
their pub), it would open the game to tons of new players who aren't proficient
in math or don't understand the rules as tournament players would.
>
> I would love to see a program that would print an HTML report in such a way
that it could be used online by the team captain or league commissioner (by
login) to enter in tournament results or league match info and have it
automatically update to a website.
>  
> Charles "Asstro" Cafferata, Jr.
> Tau Epsilon Phi, Ep. Theta 473
> "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."
> Ralph Waldo Emerson 
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kevin <goldenharvestdarts@...>
> To: darttournaments@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 12:56:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dart Tournaments] Luck of the Draw Randomizer
>
>  
> Spreadsheets to handle brackets, pools, draws, mixed blind and/or seeded along
with other functionality like PPDA and so forth have long been a huge benefit to
running dart leagues and tournaments and as one who has been writing and using
for over a decade (started with Lotus 1-2-3 and now use Excel), I am still
waiting for the future of the sport to move towards where I believe it should
move in the future, with full electronic scoring that will open up a huge data
dimension to the sport, similar to that which softtip darts has used/known about
for years.  One day we will probably find that the two sports can/will merge
under a common umbrella as technology gets better and better.
>  
> Kevin Thorsteinson
>

Kevin,

You are right here. I went to an ADA tournament about 15 years ago, and they
were already trying out 'player cards' to track the events, matches and winnings
for steel tip events.

With the electronic nature of soft tip, the connectivity to others and backing
of computer development enables distribution of software through the machines
directly.   A nice bonus to have.

Just like you've written tools to help you, so have I, and hopefully they'll
help others.  We are no longer at a time when pen and paper need to be the tool
to run an event.  I even bring a projector sometimes to just put the bracket up
on the wall for everyone to see.

I think there's a whole discussion around the future of the sport and the use of
technology to be had.  I don't know who the participants need to be, but I'd
guess it would be a difficult task to achieve.  The ability of the ADA to
standardize what they have for their leagues is in a way phenomenal.

--- In darttournaments@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <goldenharvestdarts@...> wrote:
>
> Spreadsheets to handle brackets, pools, draws, mixed blind and/or seeded
> along with other functionality like PPDA and so forth have long been a huge
> benefit to running dart leagues and tournaments and as one who has been
> writing and using for over a decade (started with Lotus 1-2-3 and now use
> Excel), I am still waiting for the future of the sport to move towards where
> I believe it should move in the future, with full electronic scoring that
> will open up a huge data dimension to the sport, similar to that which
> softtip darts has used/known about for years.  One day we will probably find
> that the two sports can/will merge under a common umbrella as technology
> gets better and better.
>
>
>
> Kevin Thorsteinson
>

There is probably a file uploads section on this mailing list's website
through Yahoo Groups.  might be easier to upload there instead of all the "me
too" emails.

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/darttournaments/files/

just a thought,
brian

--
Brian Jackson
Weddings ~ People ~ Events ~ Sports
http://www.BrianJacksonPhoto.com/

Another Marks brother/cousin?  I think I met you at Keith's golf tournament?  Keith is planning on using the randomizer for the Thanksgiving shoot, which I would like to attend, but may not be able to.

Everyone - You need to respond to one of my messages with an email.  Since the emails from the Y! groups don't allow for attachments, I can't use this tool to send them.  Since Y! groups doesn't show your full email address, I can't copy/paste it into my email tool and attach the files that way.

So - to be clear - send me an email from here, and provide, name, league, size, etc... (helps me understand who's using the randomizer), and I'll respond with the files in a regular email. 

Thanx,

Gary

--- In darttournaments@yahoogroups.com, "kdart301" <kdart301@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> I would like to see a copy....Thanks..
>
>
> Kenneth Marks
> QCEDL
>
>
>
>
> --- In darttournaments@yahoogroups.com, "heyitsgary" heyitsgary@ wrote:
> >
> > Hey everyone,
> >
> > I've been doing some minor dabbling in Excel with a Luck of the Draw randomizer. I've used it for about a year now with some of our local shoots in Trenton NJ. On the upward end, we get around 32-36 on average for our local events. I also used it at two Philly events, one of which had about 140 people.
> >
> > The draw literally takes seconds to generate, and you can call matches immediately after you take the last entry. It only requires of course that you have access to a PC/laptop at your event. You can run the entire LoD on the laptop, or use it to 'pull chips' then copy the names to a traditional paper bracket.
> >
> > The spreadsheet currently accounts for Singles, Doubles, and Qualified Doubles (where certain players can't be paired up). It deals with byes correctly for Singles, and allows for a 'replay' when there are odd numbers for a doubles tournament. It can support 1024 entries.
> >
> > I'd like to see if others out there would be interested in using it. I found it a timesaver, and think you might too. I would also take feedback and look to build on the basic tool to provide some functionality I haven't thought of, or that makes sense.
> >
> > If you're interested, send me an email with some basic information (name, league, size) and I can send you the file. I'm not looking to make money, but help out the dart community in general with what I think is a useful tool.
> >
> > Gary Y
> > Greater Trenton Dart League
> >
>