I didn't find the demo that useful because of the way it deals with 5's.
The full version is brilliant.  Especially if you're used to one style of
play and then you go to another casino where there are less/more decks etc.




Recently I have switched from hi-lo to KO and I wondered if anyone has used
Blackjack 678 and had any thoughts on it.





   _____

From: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of coatart1123
Sent: 31 March 2006 20:15
To: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CCCafe] Casino Verite



I have downloaded the demo onto my computer.  I have played with it
some but I am having some difficulty understanding exactly what it is
saying.  I know I can get help on the understanding of it on this
site, but I want to be sure it will be something worthwhile before I
purchase it.

Any ideas, and input will be greatly appreciated.

(Incidently the reason I have trouble is fully understanding what the
mathematic stuff is saying...I cheated my way through math from the
ninth grade on....never hurt me too much since I now have a Masters
Degree!!!!!!!!!  LOL)





To unsubscribe from this group, email:
blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

====================================================================

John May-"Get The Edge at Blackjack"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566251516/johnmayalsoknowa/
New and devastating blackjack methods

====================================================================




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yes i agree other forms of investment would be residual income.
it could be that way with blackjack and counting if you invest
in a team however.
otherwise your right in the thick of the battle for every heart
wrenching minute of it. for me thats the fun of it. i'm one of
those people who allways want to be at the till, and in the till :)

best regards,
            mr fr0g


--- Indrsubliminal
<no_reply@...> wrote:

Also, forgot to point out that other forms of investment may result
in lower returns, but the difference is that it's residual income.
You don't have to spend a weekend and additional expenses driving out
to a Casino and spending time at the tables.  So the time is also
part of the investment of being a counter, not just the dollars in
the bank.

  adamladygo
<no_reply@> wrote:
>
> --- drsubliminal <no_reply@> wrote:
> > That's another thing too. You expect to
> > make $200 while risking a whole lot more
> > due to the chance of negative variance, ROR, etc.
>
> Very true, but that is the nature of investing. We all chose a
> portfolio (playing style) that suits our tolerance to risk vs.
> reward. We can play with less than a 1% chance of going broke or we
> can chose to play with a 50% chance of going broke, or anywhere in
> between. The ROR is only as high as the player decides to make it.
> Just like traditional investing, the short-term variance can be
> overwhelming but the long term risk is often very manageable.
>
> > My point is, playing as a counter often
> > results in fairly slim pickings relative
> > to what you're putting at stake in terms
> > of time and money.
>
> As we have been saying, that is not necessarily true. The reason
that
> many people choose blackjack as a means of income is that they are
> generating much more profit from their money than from traditional
> investing. The reason is that their money gets compounded much more
> often than it would if they invested it. A player betting $25 units
> and playing one weekend every month can easily get over $600,000
> worth of action in a year with his small $10,000 bankroll. That is
> where the power of blackjack begins to show.
>
> For example, a money market account may have a 4% APY. If you
invest
> $10,000 then you will earn $400 for that year, less taxes. However,
> if you play blackjack with $25 units and a 1% advantage then you
can
> earn that same $400 in about 8 hours! You also have the option of
not
> declaring it as income to the IRS so you are actually earning more
in
> 8 hours of play than you would in a year's worth of saving.
>
> Adding to that all of the free comps you will be getting makes it
> easy to see why many people choose blackjack as a means of earning
> money and increasing their quality of life. It is definitely not
for
> everyone, but it is certainly a practical means for many people.
>


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

what is it?  Nick, I am like you.  I originally learned Hi-lo and then
bought the book on KO and I really like it (though I may switch some
day to red 7 because it may have a little bit better ev and is
essentially just as simple).  I never really wanted to spend the time
being able to recognize all the different sizes of the decks and then
do all the math in my head.  (Reckon they would let you use a
calculator at the tables?)

It's the software recommended in the back of Vancura and Fuch's book.  I've
downloaded the trial version, but it is just that, a trial version with most
of the functionality removed.  One thing that struck me about the help pages
are that they talk about 6's, 7's and 8's being neutral so I guess if it is
for KO then they have lifted some text about hi-lo from somewhere to fill in
the blanks.  Having persevered with Casino Verite BJ a bit longer I found I
actually like the drills and simulated play in there, so I don't think I'll
be buying Blackjack678 after all.  Anyway, it's nearly 10pm here so I'm off
for a few hours at my local casino - just 50 metres from my house!!

   _____

From: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of coatart1123
Sent: 01 April 2006 21:46
To: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CCCafe] blackjack 678



what is it?  Nick, I am like you.  I originally learned Hi-lo and then
bought the book on KO and I really like it (though I may switch some
day to red 7 because it may have a little bit better ev and is
essentially just as simple).  I never really wanted to spend the time
being able to recognize all the different sizes of the decks and then
do all the math in my head.  (Reckon they would let you use a
calculator at the tables?)





To unsubscribe from this group, email:
blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

====================================================================

John May-"Get The Edge at Blackjack"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566251516/johnmayalsoknowa/
New and devastating blackjack methods

====================================================================




   _____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



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   _____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i'd like to put forth my understanding of the use of ROR and see if anyone
thinks i'm on the right track about it or not.
i was thinking about ROR. thinking how it is with ROR and that a given player is
playing at some skill level with a bankroll =Y that affords himself a ROR = X% .
so after playing for a while let us say the player finds his bankroll declining
by some amount Z . i'm guessing at some point if the bankroll is declining by a
high enough value of Z that X (in other words the player's ROR) will increase
since the bankroll is less. so that at some point the player is going to want to
consider doing something to lower his ROR back to an acceptable level. the
options the player has would be either increase his ev or lower his bets i
should imagine. let us say for the players circumstances he can lower his bets
but is not able to change his ev. so is this a part of what Kelly betting is
about? is there an optimal way of monitoring your bankroll such that you adjust
your betting level according to the ROR you choose?
then the other thing i was wondering about with respect to ROR is about how one
understands what it means. i know it means the % of chances one has of loosing
ones entire bankroll. so if say you have a 13% ROR does that mean that if you
were to run a simulation (say 200 million rounds) of the game you play, with the
strategy you use and the bankroll you have and if you run that simulation one
hundred times then would you expect about 13 of those simulations to result in
the player loosing his entire bank?

       best regards,
                     mr fr0g



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- "Nigel Apperley" <nigelapperley@...> wrote:
>
> Recently I have switched from hi-lo to KO and I
> wondered if anyone has used Blackjack 678 and
> had any thoughts on it.

I used Blackjack 678 for a while. The practice program is okay but not
as realistic as CV. I also had problems with the simulator. It would
always crash when I tried to use an ace side count. That wouldn't be a
problem for KO or Hi-Lo but I never tried using either of them.

You might want to check out SmartCards. It is only $30 through the RGE
website.

I have been thinking for some time now about easily adding a true
count concept to the KO counting method.

What I have in mind is this.  Lets say you are down to the last round
to be dealt in a two deck game.  The KO count is set at Zero.  And
lets say penetration is 70-75% in this game.  Would it not be wise to
up your bet to 2-5 units?  Would at this point not be basically equal
to a +2 count in a single deck game?  The way I see it, you would
would really raise your ev, but I am just a dumb old West Texas
Football coach.  Any ideas on this, or how could you simulate it.

Also likewise (but not as sure at -4 in a six deck game).

--- sage frog <sagefr0g@...> wrote:
>
> so after playing for a while let us
> say the player finds his bankroll
> declining by some amount Z. i'm guessing
> at some point if the bankroll is declining
> by a high enough value of Z that X (in
> other words the player's ROR) will
> increase since the bankroll is less.

That is true. For example, a player might start with a $5,000
bankroll and a 5% ROR. If they lose $2,500 then their ROR will be
much higher since their bankroll is now smaller.

> so that at some point the player is going
> to want to consider doing something to
> lower his ROR back to an acceptable level.

Right. That usually involves adjusting the size of your bets. You
might switch from $25-$150 bets to $10-$60 bets, or even $5-$30 bets
depending on how much bankroll you have left.

> so is this a part of what Kelly betting is about?

Yup, that's it. Using Kelly you are sizing your bets based on your
current advantage, current bankroll, and current level of variance.
If any element changes (which they all are constantly) then your bets
will change with them.

> is there an optimal way of monitoring
> your bankroll such that you adjust your
> betting level according to the ROR you choose?

Well, not really. Ideally you should adjust your bets after any large
fluctuation. That would theoretically give you a 0% ROR. However,
that may not be practical since you will be re-calculating and
changing your bettin strategy almost all the time!

Many players will adjust their bets after losing (or winning) half of
their bankroll. That is a pretty good overall approach. If you start
with a 13% ROR and agree to adjust your bets if you lose half of your
bankroll then your overall ROR drops to about 5%. The more often you
resize, the more control you have over your ROR.

> so if say you have a 13% ROR does that mean
> that if you were to run a simulation (say 200
> million rounds) of the game you play, with the
> strategy you use and the bankroll you have and
> if you run that simulation one hundred times
> then would you expect about 13 of those simulations
> to result in the player loosing his entire bank?

Right. Or, if 100 players used the same strategy then 13 of them
would eventually go broke while the other 87 would continue to win
money indefinitely.

wow, thats the gamble then isn;t it? that and whether or not you can maintain
your skill level. wow. thank you for the info.

        best regards,
                       mr fr0g

adamladygo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
  Right. Or, if 100 players used the same strategy then 13 of them
  would eventually go broke while the other 87 would continue to win
  money indefinitely.







   To unsubscribe from this group, email:
  blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

  ====================================================================

  John May-"Get The Edge at Blackjack"
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566251516/johnmayalsoknowa/
  New and devastating blackjack methods

  ====================================================================



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- sage frog <sagefr0g@...> wrote:
>
> wow, thats the gamble then isn;t it?

It sure is. That is why most players will strive for less than a 5%
ROR. Many professionals will even play with less than a 1% ROR. That
requires a great deal of skill, a healthy bankroll, and frequent
bankroll assessment.

--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, adamladygo
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> --- sage frog <sagefr0g@> wrote:
> >
> > wow, thats the gamble then isn;t it?
>
> It sure is. That is why most players will strive for less than a 5%
> ROR. Many professionals will even play with less than a 1% ROR. That
> requires a great deal of skill, a healthy bankroll, and frequent
> bankroll assessment.

Oh yes, and if you are a full-time pro, you are drawing your living
expenses from your bankroll and that changes everything.

I have heard of a rule called blackjack switch.  Can anyone explain
that???

Blackjackswitch.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
coatart1123
> Sent: Thursday, 06 April, 2006 8:18 AM
> To: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [CCCafe] Black Jack Switch
>
> I have heard of a rule called blackjack switch.  Can anyone explain
> that???
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, email:
> blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> ====================================================================
>
> John May-"Get The Edge at Blackjack"
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566251516/johnmayalsoknowa/
> New and devastating blackjack methods
>
> ====================================================================
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Looking for a few good posters for http://blkjackblog.com ...

Thanks,

Mike

Welcome Mike! It looks like a great site. Can you tell us more about
the software you are developing?

--- "blkjackb" <blkjackb@...> wrote:
>
> Looking for a few good posters for
> http://blkjackblog.com ...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>

Hi, Thank you...

First, I need a few beta testers pretty soon. If interested send an
email to michael@... (any play level)

DESIGN TALK NOT USER TALK _ DO NOT READ UNLESS WANT TO BE BORED :)

As for the software, I'll tread lightly, as yet were still a couple or
three months out (do not want to get scooped.. by people with more
resource)(I have'nt given my family any info yet) This area is
saturated with analyzers and calculator's counter's but no-one that
I've come across, for software, has analyzed blackjack play/return
like business's analyze their money related projects... that's dry...
the software is not.

(One feature that's not new just revamped is the probability feature
lets you see the player's chance and the dealer's chance from any
hand. Most programs calculate your expected return at this step and I
just want to know the odds and make my own decision)

Edited excerpts from the draft software web page:
based on proven principles, that some would call, "inside information."
designed with all players in mind

Some of our underlying design thoughts for use in the software:
Best Available Knowledge
Fact Based Analysis
Best Case and Worst Scenarios

Reference Book that kinda get's the idea:
"Beyond Greed and Fear" - Behavioral Finance/Psychology Investing
Hersh Shefrin
Harvard Business School Press

Thanks again,

Mike


--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, adamladygo
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Welcome Mike! It looks like a great site. Can you tell us more about
> the software you are developing?
>
> --- "blkjackb" <blkjackb@> wrote:
> >
> > Looking for a few good posters for
> > http://blkjackblog.com ...
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike
> >
>

I heard that Grosjean's revised "Beyond Counting" contains a lot of
info about rebates.

I first read about rebates in John May's "Get The Edge At Blackjack".
He explained a simple technique to get a 20% rebate on your losses.
Wooh! I thought. If you flip a coin and get 20% back half the time,
you get a 10% edge!
I am completely amazed no one else seemed to pick up on this. JM just
gave the whole thing anyway in a tidy paragraph.
I've been doing it for years now and have made a lot of money with
it. It is amazing how fast your money grows if you resize your bank
periodically. If I had bet anything like a Kelly fraction I would
have been hundreds of thousands of dollars up by now. Nonetheless I
am very pleased with the high five-figure return I've got from my 500
dollar investment.

I kept this secret for a long, long while but it seems like JG is
going to do an expose. I'm dying to know-has any one else been doing
this? I've just been shoving down as much as I can bear to on a
single hand-is this the best thing to do?

--- "jamesthenurse2001" <jamesthenurse2001@...> wrote:
>
> I am completely amazed no one else seemed to pick
> up on this

These types of rebates have been of interest to advantage players for
many years. Some of the best descriptions of "couponomy" can be found
in Clark Cant's Blackjack Therapy
(http://www.bjrnet.com/archive/BlackjackTherapy.htm), although I
believe that Griffin's Theory of Blackjack had the first published
reference to coupon hustling. In fact, Anthony Curtis has made an
entire career off coupons and rebates.

> I kept this secret for a long, long while but
> it seems like JG is going to do an expose.

Actually, Beyond Counting was published back in 2000. Many players
have been taking advantage of these opportunities for quite a while
now. Loss rebates can be hard to find sometimes, but they are
incredibly powerful when you finally find one.

> I'm dying to know-has any one else been doing
> this? I've just been shoving down as much as
> I can bear to on a single hand-is this the
> best thing to do?

The "plunger" approach will work, but it is not really the best way
to go. The casino will begin to get suspicious if they catch you
continually asking for a rebate after every hand.

A more optimal approach would be to play 45-60 minute sessions (which
most counters do already). If you have a bad session then you can get
your rebate and move on. That will seriously reduce your variance,
which is the biggest obstacle of advantage play. If you factor in
your rebate to your overall variance then you could even calculate a
new bet spread for this game since the optimal bets will all be
higher. That way you can win more money with the same exposure to
risk.

It’s amazing how different the game is the other side of the pond!  At my
local casino I was comped a pint of Guinness in January as it was my
birthday – the going price of which is £2.90, which is £1.10 less than my
standard unit of betting.  In a high rollers joint in Knightsbridge, London,
I sometimes get my drinks free.



Compare that to surrender being available, coupons, accommodation, food,
drink, limo’s, flights, it’s no wonder blackjack is more popular in America
than in Europe.



   _____

From: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of adamladygo
Sent: 10 April 2006 20:41
To: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CCCafe] Re: I think it is now ok to talk about rebates



--- "jamesthenurse2001" <jamesthenurse2001@...> wrote:
>
> I am completely amazed no one else seemed to pick
> up on this

These types of rebates have been of interest to advantage players for
many years. Some of the best descriptions of "couponomy" can be found
in Clark Cant's Blackjack Therapy
(http://www.bjrnet.com/archive/BlackjackTherapy.htm), although I
believe that Griffin's Theory of Blackjack had the first published
reference to coupon hustling. In fact, Anthony Curtis has made an
entire career off coupons and rebates.

> I kept this secret for a long, long while but
> it seems like JG is going to do an expose.

Actually, Beyond Counting was published back in 2000. Many players
have been taking advantage of these opportunities for quite a while
now. Loss rebates can be hard to find sometimes, but they are
incredibly powerful when you finally find one.

> I'm dying to know-has any one else been doing
> this? I've just been shoving down as much as
> I can bear to on a single hand-is this the
> best thing to do?

The "plunger" approach will work, but it is not really the best way
to go. The casino will begin to get suspicious if they catch you
continually asking for a rebate after every hand.

A more optimal approach would be to play 45-60 minute sessions (which
most counters do already). If you have a bad session then you can get
your rebate and move on. That will seriously reduce your variance,
which is the biggest obstacle of advantage play. If you factor in
your rebate to your overall variance then you could even calculate a
new bet spread for this game since the optimal bets will all be
higher. That way you can win more money with the same exposure to
risk.






To unsubscribe from this group, email:
blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

====================================================================

John May-"Get The Edge at Blackjack"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566251516/johnmayalsoknowa/
New and devastating blackjack methods

====================================================================




   _____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



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   _____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think what James is talking about is a play in Get The Edge At
Blackjack where you get 20% kickbacks off your own losses. I (and
apparently James) have been doing this for years. These are MUCH more
advantageous than bricks and mortar casino rebates simply because
there is much less game protection-you can if you want indeed just
shove down as much as possible on one hand. I actually tend to just
bet 10-20% of my win goal for cover purposes.
Increasingly online casinos do regular rebate promotions between 5-
20%, which are replacing regular blackjack promo deals.

Grosjean's writings on this in the past have focused exclusively on
B&M rebates, and the optimal approach is fundamentally different
since the pit watches you like a hawk. They will welch on the whole
deal if they think you are an AP. Couponomists can get away with
more, but unlike online rebates they tend to max out at quite a low
level-you can't grow your bankroll exponentially with coupons.

I wouldn't worry about Grosjean blowing the lid on your play James-it
will almost certainly be focused on offline rebate strategies. And
no, I don't understand why others didn't pick up on this since the
edge is so great. I thought GTEAB was worth publishing solely on the
basis of that one play. Probably the relatively large Kelly bets
required for rebates made most AP's, who are really quite averse to
large bet sizes even when more than mathematically justified, put
people off.

--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, adamladygo
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> --- "jamesthenurse2001" <jamesthenurse2001@> wrote:
> >
> > I am completely amazed no one else seemed to pick
> > up on this
>
> These types of rebates have been of interest to advantage players
for
> many years. Some of the best descriptions of "couponomy" can be
found
> in Clark Cant's Blackjack Therapy
> (http://www.bjrnet.com/archive/BlackjackTherapy.htm), although I
> believe that Griffin's Theory of Blackjack had the first published
> reference to coupon hustling. In fact, Anthony Curtis has made an
> entire career off coupons and rebates.
>
> > I kept this secret for a long, long while but
> > it seems like JG is going to do an expose.
>
> Actually, Beyond Counting was published back in 2000. Many players
> have been taking advantage of these opportunities for quite a while
> now. Loss rebates can be hard to find sometimes, but they are
> incredibly powerful when you finally find one.
>
> > I'm dying to know-has any one else been doing
> > this? I've just been shoving down as much as
> > I can bear to on a single hand-is this the
> > best thing to do?
>
> The "plunger" approach will work, but it is not really the best way
> to go. The casino will begin to get suspicious if they catch you
> continually asking for a rebate after every hand.
>
> A more optimal approach would be to play 45-60 minute sessions
(which
> most counters do already). If you have a bad session then you can
get
> your rebate and move on. That will seriously reduce your variance,
> which is the biggest obstacle of advantage play. If you factor in
> your rebate to your overall variance then you could even calculate
a
> new bet spread for this game since the optimal bets will all be
> higher. That way you can win more money with the same exposure to
> risk.
>

I had to laugh when I read this, Nigel.
It took me five years of full-time blackjack play from John O'Groats
to Lands End to get comped so much as a sausage in the UK!

--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, "Nigel Apperley"
<nigelapperley@...> wrote:
>
> It's amazing how different the game is the other side of the pond!
At my
> local casino I was comped a pint of Guinness in January as it was my
> birthday – the going price of which is £2.90, which is £1.10 less
than my
> standard unit of betting.  In a high rollers joint in
Knightsbridge, London,
> I sometimes get my drinks free.
>
>
>
> Compare that to surrender being available, coupons, accommodation,
food,
> drink, limo's, flights, it's no wonder blackjack is more popular in
America
> than in Europe.
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
adamladygo
> Sent: 10 April 2006 20:41
> To: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [CCCafe] Re: I think it is now ok to talk about rebates
>
>
>
> --- "jamesthenurse2001" <jamesthenurse2001@> wrote:
> >
> > I am completely amazed no one else seemed to pick
> > up on this
>
> These types of rebates have been of interest to advantage players
for
> many years. Some of the best descriptions of "couponomy" can be
found
> in Clark Cant's Blackjack Therapy
> (http://www.bjrnet.com/archive/BlackjackTherapy.htm), although I
> believe that Griffin's Theory of Blackjack had the first published
> reference to coupon hustling. In fact, Anthony Curtis has made an
> entire career off coupons and rebates.
>
> > I kept this secret for a long, long while but
> > it seems like JG is going to do an expose.
>
> Actually, Beyond Counting was published back in 2000. Many players
> have been taking advantage of these opportunities for quite a while
> now. Loss rebates can be hard to find sometimes, but they are
> incredibly powerful when you finally find one.
>
> > I'm dying to know-has any one else been doing
> > this? I've just been shoving down as much as
> > I can bear to on a single hand-is this the
> > best thing to do?
>
> The "plunger" approach will work, but it is not really the best way
> to go. The casino will begin to get suspicious if they catch you
> continually asking for a rebate after every hand.
>
> A more optimal approach would be to play 45-60 minute sessions
(which
> most counters do already). If you have a bad session then you can
get
> your rebate and move on. That will seriously reduce your variance,
> which is the biggest obstacle of advantage play. If you factor in
> your rebate to your overall variance then you could even calculate
a
> new bet spread for this game since the optimal bets will all be
> higher. That way you can win more money with the same exposure to
> risk.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, email:
> blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> ====================================================================
>
> John May-"Get The Edge at Blackjack"
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566251516/johnmayalsoknowa/
> New and devastating blackjack methods
>
>
====================================================================
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> *  Visit your group "blackjackcardcounterscafe
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackjackcardcounterscafe> " on the
web.
>
> *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubs
> cribe>
>
> *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>   _____
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I guess that's what Clarke Cant referred to as "banger play" in his
essays.

--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, sys381
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I had to laugh when I read this, Nigel.
> It took me five years of full-time blackjack play from John O'Groats
> to Lands End to get comped so much as a sausage in the UK!
>
> --- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, "Nigel Apperley"
> <nigelapperley@> wrote:
> >
> > It's amazing how different the game is the other side of the pond!
> At my
> > local casino I was comped a pint of Guinness in January as it was my
> > birthday – the going price of which is £2.90, which is £1.10 less
> than my
> > standard unit of betting.  In a high rollers joint in
> Knightsbridge, London,
> > I sometimes get my drinks free.
> >
> >
> >
> > Compare that to surrender being available, coupons, accommodation,
> food,
> > drink, limo's, flights, it's no wonder blackjack is more popular in
> America
> > than in Europe.
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> > From: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> adamladygo
> > Sent: 10 April 2006 20:41
> > To: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [CCCafe] Re: I think it is now ok to talk about rebates
> >
> >
> >
> > --- "jamesthenurse2001" <jamesthenurse2001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I am completely amazed no one else seemed to pick
> > > up on this
> >
> > These types of rebates have been of interest to advantage players
> for
> > many years. Some of the best descriptions of "couponomy" can be
> found
> > in Clark Cant's Blackjack Therapy
> > (http://www.bjrnet.com/archive/BlackjackTherapy.htm), although I
> > believe that Griffin's Theory of Blackjack had the first published
> > reference to coupon hustling. In fact, Anthony Curtis has made an
> > entire career off coupons and rebates.
> >
> > > I kept this secret for a long, long while but
> > > it seems like JG is going to do an expose.
> >
> > Actually, Beyond Counting was published back in 2000. Many players
> > have been taking advantage of these opportunities for quite a while
> > now. Loss rebates can be hard to find sometimes, but they are
> > incredibly powerful when you finally find one.
> >
> > > I'm dying to know-has any one else been doing
> > > this? I've just been shoving down as much as
> > > I can bear to on a single hand-is this the
> > > best thing to do?
> >
> > The "plunger" approach will work, but it is not really the best way
> > to go. The casino will begin to get suspicious if they catch you
> > continually asking for a rebate after every hand.
> >
> > A more optimal approach would be to play 45-60 minute sessions
> (which
> > most counters do already). If you have a bad session then you can
> get
> > your rebate and move on. That will seriously reduce your variance,
> > which is the biggest obstacle of advantage play. If you factor in
> > your rebate to your overall variance then you could even calculate
> a
> > new bet spread for this game since the optimal bets will all be
> > higher. That way you can win more money with the same exposure to
> > risk.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, email:
> > blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > ====================================================================
> >
> > John May-"Get The Edge at Blackjack"
> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566251516/johnmayalsoknowa/
> > New and devastating blackjack methods
> >
> >
> ====================================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> >
> > *  Visit your group "blackjackcardcounterscafe
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackjackcardcounterscafe> " on the
> web.
> >
> > *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >  blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> subject=Unsubs
> > cribe>
> >
> > *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

If you're reading this Lynne I was wondering if you might tell us what
you chose to do with your winnings. I hope we didn't put you off
blackjack completely with too much negativity:)

Weak explanation. Try capital formation. Much easier
and more efficient to assemble the ever increasing
amount necessary to finance construction costs thru
the world's most efficient capital markets.

And after 5 decades of decreasing union
membership(private sector), those pension funds don't
have nearly enough dough to finance a new Vegas
mega-resort.

--- sys381 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Adam is right. The mob no longer controls Vegas. The
> mafia just
> weren't ruthless enough to compete with the
> corporations.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Some fellow stands on 14 with the dealer showing 10.  Everybody at the
table gets on his case.  They say: "You have screwed up the whole
table by not taking a hit.  You should learn how to play and not mess
us up, or stay away from the table"!

My wife believes this.  I tell her that from what I know about
blackjack that the fellow is only hurting himself, but no one else at
the table.  I say this belief is just another of those "casino myths."

Anyone have any information on this?  You know what I want.  Someone
really authoritative that I can point to that proves my wife doesn't
know what she is talking about. Yeah!  That's the ticket!

Listen to your wife.

   There was this guy at the table with me, and he was playing all weird.  And
stupid me stayed at the table.  When he left I only had 10 Dollars left in my
pocket.  I continued to play by "by the book"  and I walked out with 1500
dollars.  So I do not sit at the table with people that do not know how to play.

hscarbro89130 <hscarbro89130@...> wrote:
   Some fellow stands on 14 with the dealer showing 10.  Everybody at the
table gets on his case.  They say: "You have screwed up the whole
table by not taking a hit.  You should learn how to play and not mess
us up, or stay away from the table"!

My wife believes this.  I tell her that from what I know about
blackjack that the fellow is only hurting himself, but no one else at
the table.  I say this belief is just another of those "casino myths."

Anyone have any information on this?  You know what I want.  Someone
really authoritative that I can point to that proves my wife doesn't
know what she is talking about. Yeah!  That's the ticket!





To unsubscribe from this group, email:
blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

====================================================================

John May-"Get The Edge at Blackjack"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566251516/johnmayalsoknowa/
New and devastating blackjack methods

====================================================================



   SPONSORED LINKS
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---------------------------------





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

According to the books it doesn't matter what they play.
The ploppies at the table have no idea what the next card may be.
While a counter at least has an idea.

In fact, by some indexes and if the count is right, standing on a 14
against a 10 is the right move!


--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, "hscarbro89130"
<hscarbro89130@...> wrote:
>
> Some fellow stands on 14 with the dealer showing 10.  Everybody at
the
> table gets on his case.  They say: "You have screwed up the whole
> table by not taking a hit.  You should learn how to play and not mess
> us up, or stay away from the table"!
>
> My wife believes this.  I tell her that from what I know about
> blackjack that the fellow is only hurting himself, but no one else at
> the table.  I say this belief is just another of those "casino
myths."
>
> Anyone have any information on this?  You know what I want.  Someone
> really authoritative that I can point to that proves my wife doesn't
> know what she is talking about. Yeah!  That's the ticket!
>

I know the books say it doesn't matter, so all I can do is add my
experience.



I play at least four times a week for about 2 hours, so 400 hours a year.
What I notice is that someone that really doesn't have a clue, playing on
the last box has little or no detrimental effect on the outcome of others
around the table.  Someone without a clue anywhere else on the table doesn't
matter also.



If someone is sitting at the seventh box who pretty much plays basic
strategy and then for no reason (ie the count is positive, so the
expectation is for a low card anyway) stands 14 vs 10 in a 6 or 8 deck game,
very often the dealer will take one-two cards to get to a 17-21 total (the
chances of which, as we all know are 78%).  However, what I have observed is
that it is the 'nearly there' players that have the most marked effect and I
reduce my bet to one unit on one box (as opposed to normally playing two
boxes).  If, of course, I can get the last two boxes, poor play around the
table doesn't matter.  I wish I could back this up with some numerical
analysis, but I can't, just empirical observations.



Another observation is, again, concerning the 7th box.  When everyone around
the table gets to 11 and stands against a 4 or a 5, if there is someone in
the last box who hits on, say, soft 14 or soft 15 to get a total above 11
and then hits again (and again, cards permitting) as if they were playing
against a card in the range 7 - A, then that does tend to mess it up for the
table.  Again, no maths to back this up, just what I've observed in over 20
years of playing the game.



In conclusion, poor play doesn't hurt anyone unless it is the guy at the
last box who is the perpetrator of the crime!! .



   _____

From: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of catman_182
Sent: 15 April 2006 00:36
To: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CCCafe] Re: Does the fellow who doesn't know how to play hurt
anyone but himself?



According to the books it doesn't matter what they play.
The ploppies at the table have no idea what the next card may be.
While a counter at least has an idea.

In fact, by some indexes and if the count is right, standing on a 14
against a 10 is the right move!


--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, "hscarbro89130"
<hscarbro89130@...> wrote:
>
> Some fellow stands on 14 with the dealer showing 10.  Everybody at
the
> table gets on his case.  They say: "You have screwed up the whole
> table by not taking a hit.  You should learn how to play and not mess
> us up, or stay away from the table"!
>
> My wife believes this.  I tell her that from what I know about
> blackjack that the fellow is only hurting himself, but no one else at
> the table.  I say this belief is just another of those "casino
myths."
>
> Anyone have any information on this?  You know what I want.  Someone
> really authoritative that I can point to that proves my wife doesn't
> know what she is talking about. Yeah!  That's the ticket!
>






To unsubscribe from this group, email:
blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

====================================================================

John May-"Get The Edge at Blackjack"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566251516/johnmayalsoknowa/
New and devastating blackjack methods

====================================================================




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   _____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Abdul Jalib M'hall published a comprehensive mathematical proof
available at bjmath.com that the play of others at your table has no
effect on your hand. Basically, don't worry about it. Empirical
observations can be useful when the mathematics is in doubt as is
often the case with poker or sports betting. In blackjack, a closed
mathematical universe, they are irrelevant. You'll do your own head
in reading too much into short-term fluctuations.

As a theoretical curiousity it is worth mentioning that the play of
others does have a very small, practically inconsequential effect on
your EV: but probably not how you think. If a player takes more cards
when they play a count-positive hand (eg they split tens) then this
uses up more cards, which is a bad thing in any game with a cut-card.
Conversely, if they take more cards in count-negative hand then this
is a good thing. The overall effect is so small I think it has defied
all attempts at quantification by computer analysis over millions of
trials. In short, forgetaboutit and concentrate on your own game.

If a player is using some advanced technique then it is quite
possible to significantly alter other player's expectations. For
example if you can somehow know the next card to be dealt at third
base you may be able to steer the bust card to the dealer and
maximize the expectation of every player at the table. Generally
speaking you'll be at a table with such players once in a blue moon.

--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, "Nigel Apperley"
<nigelapperley@...> wrote:
>
> I know the books say it doesn't matter, so all I can do is add my
> experience.
>
>
>
> I play at least four times a week for about 2 hours, so 400 hours a
year.
> What I notice is that someone that really doesn't have a clue,
playing on
> the last box has little or no detrimental effect on the outcome of
others
> around the table.  Someone without a clue anywhere else on the
table doesn't
> matter also.
>
>
>
> If someone is sitting at the seventh box who pretty much plays basic
> strategy and then for no reason (ie the count is positive, so the
> expectation is for a low card anyway) stands 14 vs 10 in a 6 or 8
deck game,
> very often the dealer will take one-two cards to get to a 17-21
total (the
> chances of which, as we all know are 78%).  However, what I have
observed is
> that it is the 'nearly there' players that have the most marked
effect and I
> reduce my bet to one unit on one box (as opposed to normally
playing two
> boxes).  If, of course, I can get the last two boxes, poor play
around the
> table doesn't matter.  I wish I could back this up with some
numerical
> analysis, but I can't, just empirical observations.
>
>
>
> Another observation is, again, concerning the 7th box.  When
everyone around
> the table gets to 11 and stands against a 4 or a 5, if there is
someone in
> the last box who hits on, say, soft 14 or soft 15 to get a total
above 11
> and then hits again (and again, cards permitting) as if they were
playing
> against a card in the range 7 - A, then that does tend to mess it
up for the
> table.  Again, no maths to back this up, just what I've observed in
over 20
> years of playing the game.
>
>
>
> In conclusion, poor play doesn't hurt anyone unless it is the guy
at the
> last box who is the perpetrator of the crime!! .
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
catman_182
> Sent: 15 April 2006 00:36
> To: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [CCCafe] Re: Does the fellow who doesn't know how to play
hurt
> anyone but himself?
>
>
>
> According to the books it doesn't matter what they play.
> The ploppies at the table have no idea what the next card may be.
> While a counter at least has an idea.
>
> In fact, by some indexes and if the count is right, standing on a
14
> against a 10 is the right move!
>
>
> --- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, "hscarbro89130"
> <hscarbro89130@> wrote:
> >
> > Some fellow stands on 14 with the dealer showing 10.  Everybody
at
> the
> > table gets on his case.  They say: "You have screwed up the whole
> > table by not taking a hit.  You should learn how to play and not
mess
> > us up, or stay away from the table"!
> >
> > My wife believes this.  I tell her that from what I know about
> > blackjack that the fellow is only hurting himself, but no one
else at
> > the table.  I say this belief is just another of those "casino
> myths."
> >
> > Anyone have any information on this?  You know what I want.
Someone
> > really authoritative that I can point to that proves my wife
doesn't
> > know what she is talking about. Yeah!  That's the ticket!
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, email:
> blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> ====================================================================
>
> John May-"Get The Edge at Blackjack"
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566251516/johnmayalsoknowa/
> New and devastating blackjack methods
>
>
====================================================================
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
>
> Free
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Free+card+games&w1=Free+card+games&w2=Y
> u+gi+oh+card+game&c=2&s=45&.sig=9RcZLqirvv5Yxx8gqVqUyg>  card games
>
> Yu
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Yu+gi+oh+card+game&w1=Free+card+games&w
> 2=Yu+gi+oh+card+game&c=2&s=45&.sig=PlnIo0WXJ7vsiusYCHfTTA>  gi oh
card game
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> *  Visit your group "blackjackcardcounterscafe
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackjackcardcounterscafe> " on the
web.
>
> *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubs
> cribe>
>
> *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>   _____
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thanks sys381.  A dose of reality often helps to get me back on track!  I’ve
been having a stupendous run of bad luck over the last couple of weeks (down
about £2000 or $3,500) – it seems that every time I’m in a 12 vs dealer 10
situation I pull a 10; I can’t remember the last time hitting a 16 vs 10
worked.  I know it’ll come back, it always does, but when you’re faced with
runs of bad luck you get to thinking that it is potentially the fault of
others around the table…..





   _____

From: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sys381
Sent: 15 April 2006 12:44
To: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CCCafe] Re: Does the fellow who doesn't know how to play hurt
anyone but himself?



Abdul Jalib M'hall published a comprehensive mathematical proof
available at bjmath.com that the play of others at your table has no
effect on your hand. Basically, don't worry about it. Empirical
observations can be useful when the mathematics is in doubt as is
often the case with poker or sports betting. In blackjack, a closed
mathematical universe, they are irrelevant. You'll do your own head
in reading too much into short-term fluctuations.

As a theoretical curiousity it is worth mentioning that the play of
others does have a very small, practically inconsequential effect on
your EV: but probably not how you think. If a player takes more cards
when they play a count-positive hand (eg they split tens) then this
uses up more cards, which is a bad thing in any game with a cut-card.
Conversely, if they take more cards in count-negative hand then this
is a good thing. The overall effect is so small I think it has defied
all attempts at quantification by computer analysis over millions of
trials. In short, forgetaboutit and concentrate on your own game.

If a player is using some advanced technique then it is quite
possible to significantly alter other player's expectations. For
example if you can somehow know the next card to be dealt at third
base you may be able to steer the bust card to the dealer and
maximize the expectation of every player at the table. Generally
speaking you'll be at a table with such players once in a blue moon.

--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, "Nigel Apperley"
<nigelapperley@...> wrote:
>
> I know the books say it doesn't matter, so all I can do is add my
> experience.
>
>
>
> I play at least four times a week for about 2 hours, so 400 hours a
year.
> What I notice is that someone that really doesn't have a clue,
playing on
> the last box has little or no detrimental effect on the outcome of
others
> around the table.  Someone without a clue anywhere else on the
table doesn't
> matter also.
>
>
>
> If someone is sitting at the seventh box who pretty much plays basic
> strategy and then for no reason (ie the count is positive, so the
> expectation is for a low card anyway) stands 14 vs 10 in a 6 or 8
deck game,
> very often the dealer will take one-two cards to get to a 17-21
total (the
> chances of which, as we all know are 78%).  However, what I have
observed is
> that it is the 'nearly there' players that have the most marked
effect and I
> reduce my bet to one unit on one box (as opposed to normally
playing two
> boxes).  If, of course, I can get the last two boxes, poor play
around the
> table doesn't matter.  I wish I could back this up with some
numerical
> analysis, but I can't, just empirical observations.
>
>
>
> Another observation is, again, concerning the 7th box.  When
everyone around
> the table gets to 11 and stands against a 4 or a 5, if there is
someone in
> the last box who hits on, say, soft 14 or soft 15 to get a total
above 11
> and then hits again (and again, cards permitting) as if they were
playing
> against a card in the range 7 - A, then that does tend to mess it
up for the
> table.  Again, no maths to back this up, just what I've observed in
over 20
> years of playing the game.
>
>
>
> In conclusion, poor play doesn't hurt anyone unless it is the guy
at the
> last box who is the perpetrator of the crime!! .
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
catman_182
> Sent: 15 April 2006 00:36
> To: blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [CCCafe] Re: Does the fellow who doesn't know how to play
hurt
> anyone but himself?
>
>
>
> According to the books it doesn't matter what they play.
> The ploppies at the table have no idea what the next card may be.
> While a counter at least has an idea.
>
> In fact, by some indexes and if the count is right, standing on a
14
> against a 10 is the right move!
>
>
> --- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, "hscarbro89130"
> <hscarbro89130@> wrote:
> >
> > Some fellow stands on 14 with the dealer showing 10.  Everybody
at
> the
> > table gets on his case.  They say: "You have screwed up the whole
> > table by not taking a hit.  You should learn how to play and not
mess
> > us up, or stay away from the table"!
> >
> > My wife believes this.  I tell her that from what I know about
> > blackjack that the fellow is only hurting himself, but no one
else at
> > the table.  I say this belief is just another of those "casino
> myths."
> >
> > Anyone have any information on this?  You know what I want.
Someone
> > really authoritative that I can point to that proves my wife
doesn't
> > know what she is talking about. Yeah!  That's the ticket!
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, email:
> blackjackcardcounterscafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> ====================================================================
>
> John May-"Get The Edge at Blackjack"
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566251516/johnmayalsoknowa/
> New and devastating blackjack methods
>
>
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John May-"Get The Edge at Blackjack"
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New and devastating blackjack methods

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