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Sorry folks,
I've planed for long, but plainly forgot to post the restart of Arno's
Atlantis here. I know it's very late, but here's the info :)

Today (Sunday 19. September 2010) Arno's Atlantis will start new for the
4th time. I'll stay with the v4 engine used in the last game (96 turns).

the mail address is: st.atlantis@...

and it will accept registration mails with a body like this:

#newplayer
Factionname: The Merry Men
Password: merrymen
Email: example@...

also described at

http://www.arno-saxena.de/atlantis/atl_register.php

greetings
   Arno
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oops, forgot the time:
today at 2200 MET I'll start the new game
   Arno

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Hi Enno,
I'm asking you this through this list, because I think the answer might
be interesting for the hole Atlantis developer community.

I've just joined the newly running Olympia G3 game. There in the forums
a discussion about how long G1 and G2 have been run came up. Since I've
now started the fourth Atlantis game myself thus had an average of about
two years (one turn each week) for each game I've run and allways
pondering how to make Atlantis a truly stable and ongoing game.

And since I had the impression your Eressea had been or is running for a
very long time, I'm wondering what the main differences between Eressea
and Atlantis would be, which would count for the difference in stability
between the two, allowing Eressea to be a truly ongoing game while
Atlantis is doomed to end some time.

Greetings
   Arno
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Hi Arno,

I'm flattered whenever someone thinks so, but I don't think Eressea has
entirely succeeded at being an open-ended game. There are limits to it,
and the limit is pretty much reached when you've explored the tech-tree
and done everything once. There is a bit of joy from giant battles, and
often two alliances will meet in a big clash that's defined by how many
ships they could build, but after that, it's over - too much land to
control, too little to do with it.

That said, I've done a few things to keep it going that I think have
helped prolong the inevitable:

1. Tight settlement. In Eressea, there are about 2-3 land regions per
new player. This means that in the beginning, there's a lot of
competition and pressure, but there is also a need to form alliances
early, and in the mid-game, people don't get overwhelmed by the size of
their faction.

2. Frequent innovation. I've always put in a few gimmicks here or there
to liven things up, and that has given players stuff to do. Even those
that have a huge and unmovable empire. Early on, we moved the game from
squares to hex maps. Then we invented a few races. Later there were
wormholes that connected two random parts of the world for a single
turn, there are stable gates from the younger worlds into the ruins of
older civilizations (the abandoned lands of players from 10 years ago).

3. Shuffling things around. It's easy for players to get complacent, so
I love to throw them challenges. Very strong dragons that recruit armies
of undead were an early measure like that - they can throw a spanner
into your plans for world domination, and at scale (lots of player),
they inevitably do for somebody. Or the faster travel methods mentioned
in #2. Just last week, I created a new terrain type, pack ice, which
forms on oceans near glaciers during the winter months and has some fun
strategic properties. Watch the game, see the patterns, and think "what
would it take to change this situation?"

4. A really, really big world. There are almost 200,000 hexes in
Eressea. There were 4,000 registrations between 2002-2008 (I don't have
a bigger dataset). Explorers have a hard time seeing it all, and all
those players create a lot of local history that is fun to learn about -
for some few people. This (keeping explorers happy) is actually the
hardest part.

5. A professional approach. I'm a professional game developer, I run
online services as my job, and the mindset helps a lot for anything you
do on the internet: I never miss a turn just because I don't feel like
it, and players know there's a turn every week. I try to respond to any
email I get.

So ultimately, there's no killer feature. Watch your game, and try to
catch the point where it runs off the rail and deteriorates into a
pathological state, then steer against it, if possible with a mechanism
that is both fun and balancing. To take one last example: In Eressea,
unskilled workers used to make more money than they consumed, so players
would recruit never-ending amounts of people, train them one week, work
two weeks, recruit more and so on. This would not give you the best
fighters, but millions of them at basically no cost. Seeing this early
and stopping it would have made the game more balanced (it became
impossible to invade anyone, because they'd have so many more units than
you can fir on a ship) and more fun: nobody likes to have to do this
rote recruit/work/work/study cycle, and there's nothing clever about it.

Enno.

Hey Arno, any changes in rules or will it be just like last game?

Beigtais


--- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, Arno Saxena <al-s@...> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
> oops, forgot the time:
> today at 2200 MET I'll start the new game
>   Arno
>
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>

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On 21.09.2010 10:12 AM, beigtais wrote:
>   Hey Arno, any changes in rules or will it be just like last game?
>
> Beigtais
>
>
> --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, Arno Saxena <al-s@...> wrote:
>>
> oops, forgot the time:
> today at 2200 MET I'll start the new game
>   Arno
>
>>

same engine as last time (make file on my sources just crashed on me,
have to put in some time to find out why... :)  )
   Arno
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Game 3 is up and running (turn 4 atm). 153 players are active in the world. You
might notice some GM's from other games in the player list.

In case you have missed the start, feel free to join. You'll get the same
benefits as the players who have started from turn 1.

Good luck.  ;-)

http://olympia.v-labs.be/g3/




Tom Droeshout
Belgium, Europe



--- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, "tom.droeshout" <tom.droeshout@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Olympia might ring a bell to some of you. Several players have played Olympia
back in the days and then decided to design atlantis.
>
> We're trying to polish that old jewel back to its former glory. If you want to
take a look, please feel free to drop me a message at tom.droeshout [at]
gmail.com
>
> We're in the process of a beta test for our group of 17 old oly players. If
that works we will launch it for the public (1st of September I guess, when
everyone is back from holiday). July & August are very calm in Europe. We still
need to make a website & stuff, but that won't be a problem.
>
> The old g2 game rules will remain valid and are available at www.pbm.com/oly
>
> Btw turns will be run like the old system, once a week. And the game will be
free of course, it's open source anyway.
>
> Bye,
>
>
> Tom
>

Does anyone have the Binaries for windows XP 32 bits of Atlantis v5 or
Olimpya???

Thanks!

Hello,

I do not have the binaries, but I would suggest to compile the mentioned games
Yourself. There are two good reasons why You should learn how to do it:

First, it is necessary to adjust some of the game options before complilation.
And secondly, You might find some bug anyway that will force You to correct the
code and recompile it.

Cheers-

Hi...

  I was finally able to compile the atlantis source in Visual Studio 2008!!!!!

  I'll try to compile all versions and upload a rar file so that anyone can
download them.

  Does anyone know where the most recent source is (v4 and v5)? I've found 3
different sources.

  No that I was able to compile I can make a GUI to edit the options and read
them from a configuration file instead of being hardcoded.

Thanks!!!

Does any one have a small description about the features of the different
builds of atlantis?

  For example:
Differences  Standard vs Arcadia vs Wyreth vs Realms, etc...

Greetings, egroupsmx!

e>  I was finally able to compile the atlantis source in Visual Studio 2008!!!!!

I've been compiling Atlantis v4 under Win32 since... well, long time since.
GNU C/C++, dear...


--
WBR,
  Andrey Repin (hell-for-yahoo@...) 26.10.2010, <5:05>
Sorry for my terrible english...

Greetings, egroupsmx!

e>  Does any one have a small description about the features of the different
builds of atlantis?

e>  For example:
e> Differences  Standard vs Arcadia vs Wyreth vs Realms, etc...

You're asking to put whole history of mankind in two words?
Ok, here it is: They are different.

(Wyreth is a semi-close-ended version, Ceran features rich underground life,
etc. It's only VERY major differences. There are more to them)


--
WBR,
  Andrey Repin (hell-for-yahoo@...) 26.10.2010, <7:39>
Sorry for my terrible english...

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On 26.10.2010 5:43 AM, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, egroupsmx!
>
> e>  Does any one have a small description about the features of the different
builds of atlantis?
>
> e>  For example:
> e> Differences  Standard vs Arcadia vs Wyreth vs Realms, etc...
>
> You're asking to put whole history of mankind in two words?
> Ok, here it is: They are different.
that's three of them mate :D
but all correct :D
   Arno
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Hello egroups,

Congratulations on compiling the source. Now You are one step less away from the
most thanksless job in the world: The game master of a pbem game.

Your question:

>  Does any one have a small description about the features of the different
builds of atlantis?
>
>  For example:
> Differences  Standard vs Arcadia vs Wyreth vs Realms, etc...
>

If we are speaking about the english Atlantis line, there is also Tarmellion,
Wastelands, a bunch of russian Atlantis Versions, Conquest, Middle Earth
Atlantis. Oh well.

As mentioned before, there are many major and minor differences in the different
versions or forks of Atlantis 4/5. The best way to find out would be to search
this group of announcements, search for the homepages and read/compare the
rules.

There is a homepage with some information regarding Atlantis. It can be found at
http://home.arcor.de/sinn/english.html

The forks that had the most changes were Wastelands and Arcadia. The Arcadia
homepage is down, but a copy can still be found at archive.org:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080526040535/http://arcadia.harmus.de/

I hope this helps. What are You planning to do?

   Piotr



   Piotr

Hi Piotr,

> Congratulations on compiling the source. Now You are one step less away from
the most thanksless job in the world: The game master of a pbem game.

  Thanks!!!

>The best way to find out would be to search this group of announcements, search
for the homepages and read/compare the rules.

Ok, will do, thanks!

> There is a homepage with some information regarding Atlantis. It can be found
at http://home.arcor.de/sinn/english.html

It´s mostly out of date...

> http://web.archive.org/web/20080526040535/http://arcadia.harmus.de/
Yes, I've checked it out, but many files are missing... I´m downloading what I
can...

> I hope this helps. What are You planning to do?
  First, a page with info about atlantis, versions, current games, and
clients/tools.

  Then try to automate an atlantis game.

  Once that's done, try to put up a game of each of the version of antlantis.

  Then do this for Olympia.

  And finally put up as many games as I can like this.

--- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, "egroupsmx" <egroupsmx@...> wrote:
>
>  Hi Piotr,
>
> > Congratulations on compiling the source. Now You are one step less away from
the most thanksless job in the world: The game master of a pbem game.
>
>  Thanks!!!

No problem.


> > I hope this helps. What are You planning to do?
>  First, a page with info about atlantis, versions, current games, and
clients/tools.

Yes, a general information page might be good. Check the internet if there is no
such thing yet.

There is gamemaster guide written by Anthoby Briggs, You might want to have a
look at that.

>
>  Then try to automate an atlantis game.

Good plan.


>
>  Once that's done, try to put up a game of each of the version of antlantis.

Not knowing Your motivation, I would advise against that. You will not get the
players for such of games. The community is quite small, and has had its share
of members went either into exile or hibernation.

I do not remember it exaclty, but our games were around 12-16 players for a
total map size of 32x32.

Also, there is also the standard Atlantis 4.0.10 game that Arno is running.

>
>  And finally put up as many games as I can like this.
>

Again, I am not sure about Your motivation, but I advise against going for
quantity. Instead, I would learn the good sides and pitfalls of one game engine,
set up a non standard game that implements new elements of gameplay and has
improvements in gameplay.

Atlantis games last very long. Not changing their rules is a lost chance to
bring their rulesets and game dynamics forward.

   Piotr/iyhael

> > I hope this helps. What are You planning to do?
>  First, a page with info about atlantis, versions, current games, and
clients/tools.
>
>  Then try to automate an atlantis game.
>
>  Once that's done, try to put up a game of each of the version of antlantis.
>
>  Then do this for Olympia.
>
>  And finally put up as many games as I can like this.

I understand this approach. It is similar to what I've done on my Diplomacy
server. There were about half a dozen combinations of deadline and press options
for a standard Diplomacy game that are more popular than others. I set up
automatic game creation so that a player can always find a forming game in one
of these of formats. Over time I've gotten feedback from players and introduced
new game formats, some of which do better on my server than a couple of the
original series. This has grown the player base on my server while having a very
minimal impact on other servers running the same software. The underlying social
model or business model is the same as shipping malls. By clustering competing
games together, you make it easier for players to find games that they want to
play and attract more players.

There are limitations in the growth of the player community for this type of
game that I expect to be more pronounced than it is for the Diplomacy hobby, so
Piotr is quite right that it is better to specialize than serve the built-in
games shotgun style. If you want to run base games because you are stronger in
system administration than you are in programming or design then let's get
together off-list. I'm pretty well-balanced in my skill set, but I'd rather work
with others than try to do everything myself.

Chris

I'm new to the group. I've never actually played Atlantis, but I'm enthused
about it. With the recent relaunch of Olympia, I'm really starting to get into
nostalgia gaming.

And now...source code appearing left and right! First Olympia, now Atlantis.
Once upon a time, I dreamed of creating the "ultimate PBEM" game. I came up with
some detailed rules systems, but unfortunately I never did acquire the technical
expertise to do it. I still don't have it--I only do a tiny amount of
programming as a hobby. Still, I find the idea of seeing how these games really
work to be fascinating.

Somehow, I suspect that the release of the source code for these "grand-daddies
of MMO's" might spur a new generation of hobby PBEM games. Well, I hope so, at
least. I've forgotten how much I enjoyed this gaming format.

If anyone wants to run Atlantis again, I'm interested!

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Oi! what do you mean with "nostalgia gaming" ;)
The Atlantis Source has been available without any interruptions. Ok, I
have played the last time in an Atlantis Game about three or four years
ago, but mine has been running since 2004 once a week without any
exceptions :)

There had been times when this Group has been a bit more active, but
still the folks is around :) But in one point you might be right, we
must be all "grand-daddies" of the genre by now :D

<rantmode>
And btw, I relay don't like the idea of an "industrial size" Atlantis
server with uncountable games running. Call me old fashioned, but I
think a Atlantis host should be available for his players, at least
every once in a while (yeah, I know, there is still one player-mail I
have to answer, but I have to dig into the code to see what's happened
first :D). Also I don't  think one will find enough people willing to go
through text based reports every week to write a set of orders to fill
uncountable games on one server.

Also such a project will imho kill Atlantis. Atlantis development lives
from different hosts participating in debugging and developing the
code-base. If a Atlantis-Supermarket would be introduced, the debugging
and developing would be meaningless to all the other hosts, since they
wouldn't run any games (since the players are playing in the
supermarket) and would not be interested in fiddling with the code...
</rantmode>

my two cents :)
Arno


On 02.11.2010 1:24 AM, nosferatu_fark wrote:
> I'm new to the group. I've never actually played Atlantis, but I'm enthused
about it. With the recent relaunch of Olympia, I'm really starting to get into
nostalgia gaming.
>
> And now...source code appearing left and right! First Olympia, now Atlantis.
Once upon a time, I dreamed of creating the "ultimate PBEM" game. I came up with
some detailed rules systems, but unfortunately I never did acquire the technical
expertise to do it. I still don't have it--I only do a tiny amount of
programming as a hobby. Still, I find the idea of seeing how these games really
work to be fascinating.
>
> Somehow, I suspect that the release of the source code for these
"grand-daddies of MMO's" might spur a new generation of hobby PBEM games. Well,
I hope so, at least. I've forgotten how much I enjoyed this gaming format.
>
> If anyone wants to run Atlantis again, I'm interested!
>
>

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One of the weaknesses with hobby servers is that it's not at all easy
to get all the skills needed to run a server, run a game, run a
community, design new features, write game code and write
infrastructure code. People have to serve multiple roles, learn on the
job, deal with time management and manage unexpected problems. I've
seen people rise to that challenge in the Diplomacy hobby and, thanks
to Olympia G3, I already know people in the Atlantis community that
do.

One of the things I am anxious to do, however, is put together a team
to run a fast, hard hitting game with a rule set that favors rapid
deployment and that quickly destabilizes to a victory condition unless
the players are very evenly matched. Speed, of course, is relative,
but the main idea is to introduce new players to a fast-paced,
exciting game and provide the iterations needed with an entry-level
game to promote mastery. Players can then move on to games for
experienced players on the same server or on another.

Chris


"Excuse me. Have you seen a blowfish driving a sports car?"



On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:24 PM, nosferatu_fark <j_fark@...> wrote:
> I'm new to the group. I've never actually played Atlantis, but I'm enthused
about it. With the recent relaunch of Olympia, I'm really starting to get into
nostalgia gaming.
>
> And now...source code appearing left and right! First Olympia, now Atlantis.
Once upon a time, I dreamed of creating the "ultimate PBEM" game. I came up with
some detailed rules systems, but unfortunately I never did acquire the technical
expertise to do it. I still don't have it--I only do a tiny amount of
programming as a hobby. Still, I find the idea of seeing how these games really
work to be fascinating.
>
> Somehow, I suspect that the release of the source code for these
"grand-daddies of MMO's" might spur a new generation of hobby PBEM games. Well,
I hope so, at least. I've forgotten how much I enjoyed this gaming format.
>
> If anyone wants to run Atlantis again, I'm interested!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To Post a message, send it to:   atlantisdev@eGroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
atlantisdev-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

I currently have a unit building a boat (9567).

To get another unit onto the boat I would use the command move 9567 right?
To get out of the boat I would use move out?

thanks
John

Greetings, John Eh!

JE> I currently have a unit building a boat (9567).

JE> To get another unit onto the boat I would use the command move 9567 right?

If you intend to spend whole turn entering boat...
Else you'd use "ENTER <id>"

JE> To get out of the boat I would use move out?

LEAVE, if I recall correctly.
All that you can use in rules for your game.


--
WBR,
  Andrey Repin (hell-for-yahoo@...) 03.11.2010, <0:49>
Sorry for my terrible english...

Greetings, John Eh!

Also please don't attach to someone else's thread.
Thanks.


--
WBR,
  Andrey Repin (hell-for-yahoo@...) 03.11.2010, <0:53>
Sorry for my terrible english...

Actually being on that list was a mistake by reply. Your response is for
Atlantis or Olympia?

thanks
John


On 11/2/2010 5:53 PM, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, John Eh!
>
> Also please don't attach to someone else's thread.
> Thanks.
>
>
> --
> WBR,
>   Andrey Repin (hell-for-yahoo@...) 03.11.2010,<0:53>
> Sorry for my terrible english...
>
>

I'm pretty sure that was meant to be an Olympia question for me. I'll take it off-list.

Signoff
Chris

Top posted because of limitations in the Android 2.1 Gmail client.

On Nov 2, 2010 3:01 PM, "John Eh" <jwoolsey@...> wrote:

Actually being on that list was a mistake by reply. Your response is for
Atlantis or Olympia?

thanks
John

On 11/2/2010 5:53 PM, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, John Eh!
>
> Also please don't attach to so...

> I'm new to the group. I've never actually played Atlantis, but I'm enthused
about it. With the recent relaunch of Olympia, I'm really starting to get into
nostalgia gaming.

Welcome! Arno is right - this group was far more active and gradually became a
community of hobby lurkers. But the recents source code releases did spur a
spark of revival.

>
> And now...source code appearing left and right! First Olympia, now Atlantis.
Once upon a time, I dreamed of creating the "ultimate PBEM" game. I came up with
some detailed rules systems, but unfortunately I never did acquire the technical
expertise to do it. I still don't have it--I only do a tiny amount of
programming as a hobby. Still, I find the idea of seeing how these games really
work to be fascinating.

Your forgot to mention Eressea, Menouthis, and a couple of other excellent pbem
engines.

These games are fascinating, yes, but one does need some experience and
knowledge to fabricate a good ruleset. There are hopefully a couple of other
pbem games still in development, ie Veloragna, Shirasei (aka Rorqual2), Eressea
3.

Since our Arcadia Atlantis Series ended, I also collected a bunch of ideas
regarding a new sort of ruleset for Atlantis style gaming. I am interested in
running another pbem game in the future.

And I know exactly what You speak of regarding technical expertise and manpower
to run such a game.


> If anyone wants to run Atlantis again, I'm interested!

I am not sure whether I am interested to run a game on a Atlantis platform
again, but certainly I have not lost interest in the development of this genre.

   Piotr


p.s.: I am always interested in new ruleset ideas and have digged around the net
for quite a while for interesting concepts. If You dont mind sharing Your
concept, drop me a line at wuscheln at googlemail dot com.

Cheers,

   Piotr

> I understand this approach. It is similar to what I've done on my
>

Thanks for clarification. This is indeed a good way to go for a game with a
simple user interface. See RSWGAME for example.

  -- Piotr

--- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, Chris Babcock <cbabcock@...> wrote:
>
> One of the weaknesses with hobby servers is that it's not at all easy
> to get all the skills needed to run a server, run a game, run a
> community, design new features, write game code and write
> infrastructure code. People have to serve multiple roles, learn on the
> job, deal with time management and manage unexpected problems. I've
> seen people rise to that challenge in the Diplomacy hobby and, thanks
> to Olympia G3, I already know people in the Atlantis community that
> do.

Yes, it is not easy if You are not involved into IT, I know that too well.  But
as You pointed out there is always the possibility to form teams. The Arcadia
Atlantis games were run by such a team, for instance - we even did not have our
own server, but a friendly individual donated us a unix shell account with all
necessary stuff.

Well, I have seen anything from 14 day to 15 minute turns. The type of game
depends pretty much on the ruleset. Very much fun. Ah, good memories.

   Piotr

Does anyone know if this game ever got going???
Or if there's the source anywhere???

Thanks


--- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, "bioboobies" <biodave@...> wrote:
> Sucking up to the GM won't work...!
> As for the Atlantis I've been working on - Japanese based Bushido type mod
based on similar code to what Val was working on.  I've called it Way of the
Sword (WOTS) and only need a place to host/run it.  Val will probably help set
it up on his box and we can go from there.
>
> In a nutshell, faction points allow you to have specialist leaders - WAR =
samurai, TRADE = merchant, STEALTH = ninja and MAGIC = sorcerors.  These guys
are more "hardcore" than the normal leaders and have their own skill paths to
learn.
>
> Samurai are the only TACT 5 units and have special combat and summoning
skills.
> Ninja are the only units that can assassinate and learn to OBSE/STEA 5, in
addition to other ninja abilities.
> Sorcerors are essentially mages with access to some high level spells.
> Merchants have the quartermaster skills, advanced "making" skills and are the
only units that can make magic items/artifacts.
>
> I still need to work on ships and boats, with a few bug fixes pending.
>
> I'll upload the latest REPORT file.
> Dave