---
Chris, my suggestion tro a manufacturer is to make both. I agree
that the evidence for Italy is that the Roman/Byzantine cavalry does
not have armour, but the evidence for the Empire as a whole for the
VIth century says that some units do have horse armour... so I'd
suggest to any manufacturer that they make both and make the horses
and men interchangeable. As Khurasan make separate horses and riders
that should not be too much of a problem.

Roy


In ancmed@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Lillington-Martin
<chrislm@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I think we basically agree on possibilities but not on
probabilities. For me, everything Procopius writes about the Italian
campaigns suggests the Romans' horses being probably unarmoured but
maybe the Goths had some horse armour which perhaps P exaggerated to
make the Romans' achievement seem greater.
> So for a manufacturer, I'd suggest designing a range of more
unarmoured horses (which I might buy) than armoured ones (which I
wouldn't buy).
> Regards
> Chris
>
>
>
> To: ancmed@...: elm.farm@...: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:56:23
+0000Subject: [ancmed] Re: Armoured horse archers
>
>
>
> --- That's why I put the Goth comment in parentheses Chris. I agree
that horse armour was most necessary for troops facing horse archery.
I was just a bit concerned that, if we are giving an opinion to a
figure designer, we should argue for both armoured and unarmoured
horses for the Byzantine/Late Roman heavy cavalry because there is a
case for both.RegarsRoyIn ancmed@yahoogroups.com, Christopher
Lillington-Martin <chrislm@> wrote:>> > 11 Jan 2009 > Roy
wrote: "(and Procopius tells us that the Goths have significant
archery)."> > Chris: I wrote "the Goths had few, if any, horse-
archers" and they were often defeated in mounted skirmishes because
Belisarius cavalry shot them from a safe distance. When the Gothic
infantry archers shot at Belisarius' cavalry they retired, which
actually backs up my point about the Romans' horses being unlikely to
have had armour.> > Roy Boss wrote: "But Belisarian Roman cavalry are
regularly facing the bow armed Persians on the Eastern front and the
bow armed Kutrigurs on the Danube," > > Chris writes: true but I
wrote "The Romans' horses of this western C6th campaign ..." perhaps
I should have written "Italian C6th campaign".> > Regards> > Chris> >
To: ancmed@: elm.farm@: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:33:52 +0000Subject:
[ancmed] Re: Armoured horse archers> > > > --- In
ancmed@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Lillington-Martin <chrislm@>
wrote:>> > not. I suggest a mix - so separate shields would be ideal.
> Shield bosses: difficult to know about bosses but Philip Rance
(GRBS 44, 2004: 273, note 18) states "boukoula" (cf. bukelarii)
refers to the boss not the shield (and that Dennis' 1984 translation
of Maurice's Strategikon, p.146, is "confused" - even if discussing
infantry). So again, put bosses on shields and those who don't like
them can remove them. RBBut as a derivation of bukellarii the idea
that they eat the ir lord's rations rather than state funding is just
so much more satisfactory. After all pretty well everyone has a
shield boss, its not a mark of distintion.And if we believe 'On
Strategy' allegedly a VIth century manual front rankers (infantry)
have shield bosses with 4 inch spikes on them.> Gothic (="Germanic")
horse: Procopius states (Wars, V.xvi.11) that Gothic "horsemen and
infantry... most of them as well as their horses were clad in
armour." So perhaps a mix again. The Romans' horses of this western
C6th campaign are never so described (and their riders are sometimes
described protecting the horses with their shields). Maybe Procopius
is exaggerating or swapping things around a bit but logically, horse-
armour would be less needed for the late eastern Romans as the Goths
had few, if any, horse-archers and more needed by Goths as that is
what the Roman cavalry apparently specialised in.> Regards> > ChrisRB
But Belisarian Roman cavalry are regularly facing the bow armed
Persians on the Eastern front and the bow armed Kutrigurs on the
Danube, (and Procopius tells us that the Goths have significant
archery). 'On Strategy' has the Romans with frontlets, neck and
breast protection for their horses. Very like the kit described in
the Strategikon. In the S the adoption of Avar equipment is described
in terms that suggest that the Romans already have horse armour and
that the Avar type is an additional option rather than a new
concept.I don't doubt that Some Goths have horse armour... possibly
leather or fabric rather than metalbut I'm pretty certain that
Belisarian Roman armies can have it tooRoy> > > > > > To: ancmed@:
khurasanminiatures@: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:55:28 +0000Subject: [ancmed]
Re: Armoured horse archers> > > > Interesting discussion Chris and
Roy and could not come at a better time as I am this weekend sending
info to my LIR sculptor to make the Early Byz expansion models --
bukelarii, cavalry, german foederates and huns.Cavalry and huns will
be break-waist to allow shooting forward --we are still hashing out
whether to allow swivelling for multipose purposes, which Gareth
thinks might affect anatomical accuracy. Cavalry will come w/ two
different lower halves, one with loose trousers, the other with
strappy leggings. Chris, one of the three different upper bodies is
to have a ridge helmet, the other two to have spangenhelm. Any
thoughts on that.Gareth has just finished the clibanarii which I
intend to market as sassanid elites and also as Roman/Roman satellite
copies of those. They have archery equipment, but no shield. Is this
a mistake?Any info you can provide on the shield for the bukelarii or
the byz cavalry would be appreciated -- I thought I'd have a shield
made separate of the body, and sold as separate packs for those who
want them. What size, shaps, and what kind of boss, do you think?Roy,
on the German horse, what think you in terms of dress and equipment?
All armoured or maybe 1/3 with body armour, all three poses with
spangenhelm?All the best,http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com--- In
ancmed@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Boss" <elm.farm@> wrote:>> --- > Chris,
we debated the question of shields extensively. I really don't >
recall that you came up with anything that showed 'Belisarian' horse
> archers with shields a metre in diameter. To say a shield
is 'short' > rather than 'long' is fine, but that's not enough to
make the leap to > a still relatively large shield.> > The shield
described in the Strategikon would be better represented > IMHO by
something like that of the Khusro relief and that is smaller > than
three feet diameter.> > Having to handle a metre wide shield and a
bow would not be easy. > Something smaller makes as much sense of
your translation and fits > rather better with the use of the
weapon.> > My only difficulty with using Late Roman figures for this
period is > that most LIR figures have Intercisa style (ridge
helmets) helmets > and don't have the appropriate armour except for
clibanarii. There > seems to be a new type of shieldless but armoured
horse archer in > the Justinianic period that is not there in LIR
ranges.> It would be better perhaps to use figures with spangenhelmen
because > that is what the archaeology from the period gives us.
Equally the > only LIR horsebows that will fit are clibanarii and
they tend to have > small shields of about one foot diameter strapped
to their upper left > arms and that is probably too small.> > Are you
sure about the horse armour. Again there is much debate > around
this. However, if Belisarian troops do not have horse armour > then
it has to be introduced or rather re introduced between 560 and > 590
(if you go for a 590 date for Maurice). There are a couple of >
sources that at least hint at horse armour in the earlier period and
> it would make sense, certainly facing Persian horse archers on the
> Eastern frontier to have that sort of protection.> > Best Regards>
Roy> > > > In ancmed@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Lillington-Martin >
<chrislm@> wrote:> >> > > > > > DLI would suggest looking at late
Roman ranges (as they were late > eastern Romans really, weren't
they?) and choose the style of > manufacturer you prefer. Even some
Hunnic type figures might suit.The > historian, Procopius, witnessed
several battles, 527-540+ (including > Dara and Callinicum), and here
is how he described eastern Roman > cavalry and their equipment: "the
(cavalry) bowmen of the present > time go into battle wearing
corselets and fitted out with greaves > which extend up to the knee.
From the right side hang their arrows, > from the other the sword.
And there are some who have a spear ... > and, ... a shield, ... They
are expert horsemen, and are able without > difficulty to direct
their bows to either side while riding at full > speed, and to shoot
an opponent whether in pursuit or in flight. They > draw the
bowstring along by the forehead about opposite the right > ear,
thereby charging the arrow with such an impetus as to kill > whoever
stands in the way, shield and corselet alike having no power > to
check its force." I would suggest seeking ranges depicted with > such
equipment. Corselets could be chain mail or scale armour > (possibly
extending down to the knee).Greaves may have been made up > of
several vertical strips of metal or...Arrows / bow in a quiver >
hanging on the right from a waist belt.Sword (about 1m long?) hanging
> on the left from the same waist belt.Spear (about 2-3 m
long?).Shield > probably round or oval (about 1 m in diameter?).
Don't be fooled by > the "small" shield idea which is based on a mis-
translation of the > Greek which should read "short" shield (as
opposed to the "long" > (infantry) shields). Cavalry shield designs
are unknown - so be > inspired by (Christian?) late Roman ones. They
did not have stirrups > or horse-armour so I'd avoid those things
too.Chris> > > > To: ancmed@: dl.edwards1@: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:08:33
> +0000Subject: [ancmed] Armoured horse archers> > > > > > I wonder
if any of you can help me. I plan to stage a game at the > next
Society of Ancients Battle Day, and I am looking for suitable >
figures for the Byzantine heavy horse archers. So far the only 15mm >
manufacturer I have spotted who specifically covers this period and >
this troop type is Donnington. Do any of you know what this range is
> like for quality and accuracy? Are there any other decent 15mm
ranges > out there?Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > > > > >
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