>>
  Really a problem with making maps. In an idea world, we'd show that the
boundaries are porous and overlapping. Clans don't have firm boundaries
recognized by all parties, nor do tribes. However, this map helps show the
generally accepted boundaries of the tribes and helps players and narrators get
a far better feeling for the location and size of the tribes, which locations
are under the control of what tribe and so on.


Jeff
>>

Where do the clan markers fit into all this?  ISTR that they mark out the limits
of the perception of the clan wyter.

I guess, from the comments above, that they mark out the core of the clan's
territory: holy sites, steads, fields and prime grazing.  The sort of stuff that
the clan will fight to protect.  What's left in between is the wilder
non-cultivated portions, low quality grazing and hunting grounds.  This being
the porous portion you mentioned above.

Is that the right sort of thinking?

Gavain

> I guess, from the comments above, that they mark out the core of the clan's
territory: holy sites, steads, fields and prime grazing.  The sort of stuff that
the clan will fight to protect.  What's left in between is the wilder
non-cultivated portions, low quality grazing and hunting grounds.  This being
the porous portion you mentioned above.
>
> Is that the right sort of thinking?

Yep. The wyter protects the core lands and holy places of the clan. There are
going to be lots of land claimed by a clan that are not protected by the wyter.
And the wyter may protect areas that would not seem obviously important and
ignore economically valuable places.

Jeff

--- In WorldofGlorantha@yahoogroups.com, "allen" <richaje@...> wrote:
>

>
> Yep. The wyter protects the core lands and holy places of the clan. There are
going to be lots of land claimed by a clan that are not protected by the wyter.
And the wyter may protect areas that would not seem obviously important and
ignore economically valuable places.
>
I always also figured that the clan was responsible for what went on in the
lands protected by their wyter, but less so in traditional hunting lands, etc. 
Also that there must be some cost to the clan for larger wyter supervised areas,
if only longer walks during certain ceremonies.  So if there are dangerous
landscape spirits, you probably don't have them within your boundaries.  If
there are rough lands that you don't have the resources to properly patrol, you
probably don't want them within your boundaries.

As a result, the spaces between clans would often not be the most pleasant
places.... :)

Got some more news up on Glorantha.com. Check it out:
http://www.glorantha.com/index.php?page_id=677

Jeff

PS. Those of you who are on Facebook should think about joining the fan group
Heroquest: Roleplaying in Glorantha
(http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/pages/HeroQuest-Role-Playing-in-Glor\
antha/133626110014?ref=nf). It is an easy way to keep up on your Glorantha news
since it is one of the first places I tend to post new info!

And no, I don't plan to start a Twitter account.

--- In WorldofGlorantha@yahoogroups.com, "allen" <richaje@...> wrote:
>
> Got some more news up on Glorantha.com. Check it out:
http://www.glorantha.com/index.php?page_id=677
>
> Jeff

Wow!

I am really excited about the Sartar book.  The visuals are really great.

I think I may have just the tool for recruiting people for the Lozenge.

> I am really excited about the Sartar book.  The visuals are really great.

And wait until you see the final book. The internal art is wonderful (as are the
maps - maps of greater Dragon Pass, Sartar, the tribes, the roads, holy places,
Colymar lands, the Nymie Vale and the Starfire Ridges, Boldhome, Jonstown,
Swenstown, Wilmskirk, and Clearwine). There's just so much stuff in this book!

> I think I may have just the tool for recruiting people for the Lozenge.

That's exactly the goal!

Jeff

Somewhat off topic I know. I just tried ordering some stuff from Tradetalk, but
the site was unable to load the ordering page. When I tried dropping them a
message at the address provided, it came back unable to deliver message, address
not recognised.

Has anybody else had any difficulty with the Tradetalk site ?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello

The adress you should use is editor@...

I have no problem with receiving email or sending them.

Try again... or use THIS email address. :-)


Cheers

André Jarosch
Editor of Tradetalk magazine
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "CLIVE WICKENS" <clive.wickens@...>
To: <WorldofGlorantha@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:32 AM
Subject: [WorldofGlorantha] Re: Tradetalk site ?


> Somewhat off topic I know. I just tried ordering some stuff from
Tradetalk, but the site was unable to load the ordering page. When I tried
dropping them a message at the address provided, it came back unable to
deliver message, address not recognised.
>
> Has anybody else had any difficulty with the Tradetalk site ?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Gotterdamerung – Glorantha Style

Place: Central Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Time: Alternate Weekdays, starting in January 2010


When my Starblazer Adventure game winds down in January I will be looking to try
out the new Heroquest rules and the new Sartar campaign setting from Issaries. 
I would like to start recruiting players now for a very particular kind of
Gloranthan gaming, one that combines the aggressive scene-framing techniques of
Sorcerer and Burning Empires with the troupe-style of play pioneered by Ars
Magica.

I am interested in doing a high-powered Glorantha game set during the climax of
the Hero Wars, during the end of which the gods will die and magic will leave
the world.

The setting will be in the hill-top sanctuary of a group of powerful magicians
trying to preserve something of their traditions as the world goes up in flames.
Exact location TBA but it will be somewhere near Dragon Pass.

This is where the Ars Magica influence comes in.  All players will create one
powerful magician , one assistant to a mage, and 2 to 3 minor functionaries
(i.e., the Mage, Custos, and Grog roles from AM).  Adventures would feature 1
Mage, several Custoi, and as many Grogs as needed.  The player who was the
featured Mage would then play a Custos, while one who played a Custos would then
get to play his Mage and another would take the GM seat.

So, players in this campaign would have to be comfortable being a GM.  Such
GM/players would also be comfortable with narrative-focused games.  Ideally each
session would present one self-contained story, so GM/players would have to be
into conflict-heavy scene framing.

Hope to hear from you if you are interested, have questions, or have suggestions

I may be contacted here: epweissengruber at hotmail dot com

Hi all

Someone asked about a character named Dajjinder.

In tradetalk issue 9, there is a Silver Shield peltast of this name.
(typicla patrol, last page)

I hope it helps
Cheers
Jean

Untested I forward what I picked up in another rpg list:

Just a reminder, or heads up that on Oct 26, 2009 Geocities is closing
down and any of those good old rpg sites that are on Geocities will be
gone.  Now is the time to visit the sites and back them up.

New reviews of HeroQuest are popping up all over! Check out Lowell Francis's
blog (http://ageofravens.blogspot.com/2009/10/10909.html) and on geekdo.com
(http://rpg.geekdo.com/thread/4d50352).

Meanwhile, Moon Design Studios blog debuted the new Sartar cover by Simon Bray.
Check it out: (http://vingkot.livejournal,com)

Jeff

Are we going to lose Simon Phipp's wonderful
website???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????

--- In WorldofGlorantha@yahoogroups.com, Pomeroi <pomeroi@...> wrote:
>
>
> Untested I forward what I picked up in another rpg list:
>
> Just a reminder, or heads up that on Oct 26, 2009 Geocities is closing
> down and any of those good old rpg sites that are on Geocities will be
> gone.  Now is the time to visit the sites and back them up.
>

So what!  We are all working toward something better than this.  What you
describe were just stages along the way not archeological evidence providing
dome sort of proof.

--- In WorldofGlorantha@yahoogroups.com, Steven Leary <sdleary@...> wrote:
>
> Time to delurk...
>
> Jeff,
>
> Despite your assertion that Genertelan dress is not analogous to
> comparable earthly cultures, you have a hell of a lot to do to
> disprove this. I refer you to RQ supplement box 8, Glorantha: GCotHW,
> booklet 2, Genertela Book. Greg and Sandy are listed as authors, and
> because its Glorantha, I have to assume that Greg had oversight on
> approving the art work.
>
> p.11 	 Fronela -- This is clearly a Western European knight from the
> High Medieval/Early Renaissance period.
>
> pp.22 & 23 Kralorela -- The two Martial Artist shown are clearly East
> Asian in appearance and dress. In fact the gis look very Japanese or
> Korean.
>
> p.29 	 Lunar Empire -- A hellenistic member of a Phalanx.
>
> ... and we have a Germanic/Nordic warrior from Maniria, a Hunnic or
> Mongol warrior (you could argue a Scyth) from Pent, an Italian City
> State warrior/soldier from Ralios, a Byzantine Imperial Cataphractos
> from Seshnela and a Anatolian Turk from Teshnos. The only ones that
> don't look like they are earthly analogs are the Zebra rider and the
> Dragonewt. Thumbing through Pavis, Big Rubble, and Borderlands gives
> the same impressions.
>
> Now I know that this may have not been Greg's intention, it has
> certainly tuned into the result.
>
> SDLeary
>
> All of this gives the impression that not only the dress, but the
> Cultures are similar to those depicted.
> On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:10 PM, markmohrfield wrote:
>
> > Perhaps so, but why the sudden emphasis on the bronze age
> > specifically?
> >
> > Mark Mohrfield
> >
> > --- In WorldofGlorantha@yahoogroups.com, "jeffrichard68"
> > <richaje@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The gloranthan West is NOT the medieval West of Europe and their
> > costumes should not be based on that. I agree fully with ian's points.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Precisely my view

--- In WorldofGlorantha@yahoogroups.com, "valkoharja" <rintasaa@...> wrote:
>
> --- In WorldofGlorantha@yahoogroups.com, "ian_hammond_cooper"
<ian_hammond_cooper@> wrote:
>
> >Montheism, wizards and knights may be things we associate with >medieval
Europe, but the caste systems is not. I don't think that the >analogue in the
past for familiarity, but I think it has the danger of >overwhelming what is not
like that.
>
> Exactly. I've alway had trouble with the anachronism of the high-middle ages
West Glorantha, mixed with the generally much earlier "period" world.
>
> I use early Islam and Judaism for cultural inspiration, but keep the
technology at bronze/early iron age. Cataphractoi / Clibanari instead of knights
for instance.
>
>   -Adept
>

I think this post more than any other put me straight, thanks

--- In WorldofGlorantha@yahoogroups.com, "Joerg Baumgartner" <joe@...> wrote:
>
> "chrphrgrv"
>
>
> > Being how Glorantha is flat would the experiance of the passing sun not be
> > dramatically different based on what longitude you are at?
>
> Such an argument could be made. However, the Inner World is a mere five
> time zones across, and the way to the gates of Dusk and Dawn is at least
> that far.
>
> Then there is the problem with magical heights - the inner world reaches
> maybe 10 km above sea level, somewhere on the way you start to enter the
> Middle Sky where absolute distances are less meaningful.
>
>
> > For those living in the middle latitudes the following:
>
> > In the far east, the sun must appear to shoot up, or rush in  from the
> > hazy eastern distance in the morning, pass by fairly quickly and then
> > appear to be moving slower and slower in the western sky until for a while
> > the sun would not appear to be moving at all, finally the sun would dip
> > down quickly.  Regardless for much of the day the suns power would slowly
> > diminish.  The concept of noon would be non existence.  Long shadows would
> > spring up in the morning and at a rate almost disorienting to us terrans
> > shrink and then grow again in the other direction, though after a certain
> > point the lengthening would be very very slow indeed.
>
> This might be the case near the Gates of Dawn, provided the sun moves west
> from there at once. There are some Eastern Isles supposed to be as far out
> or even farther as the Gates of Dawn, but they are hardly part of the
> Inner World any more than say Altinela in the distant north of Genertela
> or the Luathelan archipelago.
>
>
> > In the far west, the sun would suddenly rise up dim in the far eastern sky
> > and gradually grow stronger and swifter all day in ever increasing orders
> > of magnitude until with all his glory he would pass swiftly overhead and
> > in a relatively brief time dive down quickly to a misty far away point in
> > the west where he would disappear again.
>
> Somehow, this is counter-intuitive to the denominators "Lands of Dawn" and
> "Lands of Dusk".
>
> So, how about this: the sun lingers on those horizons because it doesn't
> appear to go straight up/down, but outward to meet the sky?
>
>
> > In the center of the world this effect would be less but still apparent.
>
> In the center of the world - i.e. all over Genertela and Pamaltela - there
> is no measurable parallax. The sun will reach Pole Star's position at noon
> anywhere, and it will be directly above your "meridian" at noon, whether
> in Kralorela or Seshnela. In Summer, it will appear to the north of you,
> in winter to the south.
>
> In this regard, Glorantha is a tropical world - nowhere will the sun creep
> along the horizon, as it does in arctic areas.
>
> It won't be possible to remain north of the sun in summer without leaving
> the Inner World - possibly not even visiting Altinela. Sailing Sramak's
> River might make that possible, but that takes Sendereven magics (and even
> they prefer to take to port in Altinela).
>
>
> > To the extent that you are watching this spectacle from a far northern or
> > southern point the suns progress would appear more steady. Its strength
> > would feel more constant.  But shadows would not lengthen as appreciably
> > and would rather be marked by their fairly swift movement from one
> > direction to the other as the day progressed.
>
> > Or is there some mythic magical intersession that allows all Gloranthans
> > to experience the passing of the sun in similar ways?  I am hoping no.
>
> Let me put it this way: the Dawn was a universal event, but it may have
> taken place at different times. The Darkness in the East Isles was
> different from that in Genertela, and there appears to have been a sun-lit
> Gray Age there.
>
> > I'm not terribly mathematical so I don't know how to balance the changes
> > in curvature would do to the perception of the distance of the sun.  But
> > it is inconceivable that the Gloranthan sun is anywhere near as far away
> > as our sun or anywhere near as big.
>
> As I said above, as soon as you leave the Inner World, absolute size
> becomes less meaningful.
>
> If you still want to do calculations, consider this: the Crater in Peloria
> defines the minimum circumference of the Red Moon. (in my personal theory,
> it defines the visibility limit of the moon from the surface around the
> upper pole of the moon, and the inside of the crater is a vast sphere
> whose surface can be seen in the sky)
>
> Assuming that the moon (as seen from outside of the Glowline) is about as
> big as the sun, you could make assumptions about the diameter of the sun
> which passes above the moon.
>
> Now, from within the Glowline, the moon appears a lot further up, and IIRC
> smaller. Still, the sun is far above it, and retains its apparent size.
> This means it is very far away and very large.
>
> One question about sun and moon is: are there Lunar eclipses?
> Theoretically there ought to be daily eclipses in a curve on the surface
> of the northern world, depending on the height and northerly course of the
> sun.
>
> To our knowledge, no such eclipses have been observed south of the Crater,
> or even within the Lunar Empire. Within the Glowline, there is no reason
> this should happen, because the sunpath will never reach the place
> occupied by the moon in the Upper Sky. Outside of the Glowline and north
> of the Crater latitude, you might look at the Crater (with the Red Moon
> vertically above the Crater) and see the sun pass north of you in the sky.
> You might expect an eclipse once a day, for at least two weeks a year.
>
> I don't recall what the official position on the existance (and possibly
> seasonal variations) of these eclipses was. I seem to remember "not in the
> Inner World" from discussions during the editing of "Under the Red Moon"
> when I was involved in some of the geometry experiments.
>
>
> > This too would dramatically impact
> > the perspective of the suns passage especially from the far north and
> > south where after a certain point the passage might appear far lower in
> > the sky very quickly though it would never appear as low as it does for us
> > on a globe.
>
> Again, that's leaving the Inner World, where distances and size are
> dependent on other factors than mere measurements. In my Glorantha, these
> size effects even happen when putting on "too much" magic - when there is
> an overdose of myth or magic, a single individual may appear bigger than
> an elder giant, and possibly able to take on a True Dragon on the usual
> scale of dimensions (i.e. maybe at a size disadvantage of 1:10) even
> though that dragon just left an immense valley at his resting place (which
> appeared as a mountain range before). So, if you are sufficiently
> magically powerful to get there, you may be tall enough that the sun would
> have to appear lower.
>
> > I like all this.  It would force me to rethink the attitudes, myths,
> > temperament etc. such as the Brithini and the Varelans and especially the
> > folk of the East Isles.
>
> As long as it doesn't become counter-intuitive, with the lands of Dawn
> experiencing hardly any morning and the lands of Dusk hardly any evening,
> speculate away.
>
> There might also be ceremonial reasons for the sun to linger in the
> respective eastern and western lands, accepting the homage of morning or
> undergoing the preparations for the Underworld. And yes, there ought to be
> entire cultures dedicated to these tasks.
>

The problem is that so far we have nothing to prove that it will be
better, just different based upon brief descriptions. Until product is
in hand that refutes all product before it, "better" cannot be proven.
Second, you are dealing with something that is analogous to being
archaeological in nature. You have multiple generations of a game
going back thirty plus years that depict the cultures of a fantasy
world one way. While not in print, these products are readily
available for those that do a brief search.

In order to overcome these thirty years, Moon Design is going to have
to be very prolific with its publishing. And those products are going
to have to have ample visual evidence that contradicts what came
before it; pictures of people in the described cultures which are
clearly not Earth analogous. And those products will have to be
available in numbers that put enough product out there to be seen.

Remember that "A picture is worth a thousand words". And its the
pictures from those previous supplements more than the text that is
going to make this transition a potentially difficult one.

SDLeary

On Oct 10, 2009, at 1:47 PM, Prince B wrote:

> So what! We are all working toward something better than this. What
> you describe were just stages along the way not archeological
> evidence providing dome sort of proof.
>
> --- In WorldofGlorantha@yahoogroups.com, Steven Leary <sdleary@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Time to delurk...
> >
> > Jeff,
> >
> > Despite your assertion that Genertelan dress is not analogous to
> > comparable earthly cultures, you have a hell of a lot to do to
> > disprove this. I refer you to RQ supplement box 8, Glorantha:
> GCotHW,
> > booklet 2, Genertela Book. Greg and Sandy are listed as authors, and
> > because its Glorantha, I have to assume that Greg had oversight on
> > approving the art work.
> >
> > p.11 Fronela -- This is clearly a Western European knight from the
> > High Medieval/Early Renaissance period.
> >
> > pp.22 & 23 Kralorela -- The two Martial Artist shown are clearly
> East
> > Asian in appearance and dress. In fact the gis look very Japanese or
> > Korean.
> >
> > p.29  Lunar Empire -- A hellenistic member of a Phalanx.
> >
> > ... and we have a Germanic/Nordic warrior from Maniria, a Hunnic or
> > Mongol warrior (you could argue a Scyth) from Pent, an Italian City
> > State warrior/soldier from Ralios, a Byzantine Imperial Cataphractos
> > from Seshnela and a Anatolian Turk from Teshnos. The only ones that
> > don't look like they are earthly analogs are the Zebra rider and the
> > Dragonewt. Thumbing through Pavis, Big Rubble, and Borderlands gives
> > the same impressions.
> >
> > Now I know that this may have not been Greg's intention, it has
> > certainly tuned into the result.
> >
> > SDLeary
> >
> > All of this gives the impression that not only the dress, but the
> > Cultures are similar to those depicted.
> > On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:10 PM, markmohrfield wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps so, but why the sudden emphasis on the bronze age
> > > specifically?
> > >
> > > Mark Mohrfield
> > >
> > > --- In WorldofGlorantha@yahoogroups.com, "jeffrichard68"
> > > <richaje@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The gloranthan West is NOT the medieval West of Europe and their
> > > costumes should not be based on that. I agree fully with ian's
> points.
> > > >
> > > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've got some great articles coming up for the next issue of Rule One, but I
could really use some artwork (other than clipart!)

You don't need to be a Dario Carallo or Simon Bray to contribute (if you
*are* Dario or Simon, feel free to contribute!), though I'd prefer something
better than RQ3-era Dobyski artwork (RQ3-era Dobyski maps, on the other
hand, would be great...).

If you think you'd like to help, drop me a line. I've got one specific image
in mind, and some others that are on the edge of my consciousness.

RR
He was born with the gift of laughter and the sense that the world was mad
R. Sabatini, Scaramouche

Prince B:
> Are we going to lose Simon Phipp's wonderful
> website???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????

I'm blushing now. My website has been at www.soltakss.com for a while now. The
Geocities address redirects to the main site. Anyone pointing to
www.geocities.com/soltakss should point to www.soltakss.com. I doubt if anyone
points to the really old geocities address, but that should be changed as well.

The strangest link to one of my articles has to be
http://forums.womansday.com/showthread.php?p=376426 - a thread on a forum
devoted to housewives, from what I could see.

See Ya

Simon

Hi there,

I wrote a siully myth for my new MRQ campaign I thought people might find
amusing.  Here's the link:

http://webspace.webring.com/people/lo/oliverb/WindPirates/OrlanthScalestheMount.\
htm

Enjoy,

Oliver

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My website has now moved, thanks to the kind WebRing people, to:

http://webspace.webring.com/people/lo/oliverb/

Oliver



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good news Mr. Phipp!

Does anyone know of worthy Glorantha based site that is still on Geocities that
should get backed up?

Hello friends

"Tradetalk # 17 - Pavis & Prax Special" is ready for shipping!

Subscribers and contributors copies will be shipped this week.

Orders can be made through our website www.tradetalk.de (please use the
refresh button to be sure to see the actual website).

Any order made until Thuesday to Wednesday night (CET) will get shipped
right away along with the subscribers and contributors copies!


Please note:
A lot of subscriptions run out with Tradetalk # 16, and some more run out
with this very issue.
Please make sure to renew your subscription if you also want to see
Tradetalk in the future.
To check your subscription status go to
www.tradetalk.de/english/order_tradetalk.doc . If you are not on the list,
your subscripion already has run out.


By the way:
The PDF version of this issue will be available a few weeks after the
subscribers and contributors got their copies.


Cheers


André Jarosch
Editor of Tradetalk magazine

After a great troll victory the Beastmen fell upon the drunken and engorged
troll army.  In this condition they slaughtered them easily.  The Beastmen piled
the troll corpses in a nearby ruins and burned them.  These ruins still smoke to
this day in fact they are called 'The Smoking Ruins'.  These ruins are in the
Dragon Pass region but where?  Who can tell me?

Prince B wrote:
> After a great troll victory the Beastmen fell upon the drunken and
> engorged troll army.  In this condition they slaughtered them easily.
> The Beastmen piled the troll corpses in a nearby ruins and burned
> them.  These ruins still smoke to this day in fact they are called
> 'The Smoking Ruins'.  These ruins are in the Dragon Pass region but
> where?  Who can tell me?

In the Grazelands.  If you have the Wilms Church map of Dragon Pass then
it is the ruins between Queens Post and the Wild Temple.  In the Dragon
Pass Gazetteer, they lie on the western edge of the map.

--Peter Metcalfe

Many thanks, that makes sense.  Do you happen to know what city these are the
ruins of??

--- In WorldofGlorantha@yahoogroups.com, Peter Metcalfe <metcalph@...> wrote:
>
> Prince B wrote:
> > After a great troll victory the Beastmen fell upon the drunken and
> > engorged troll army.  In this condition they slaughtered them easily.
> > The Beastmen piled the troll corpses in a nearby ruins and burned
> > them.  These ruins still smoke to this day in fact they are called
> > 'The Smoking Ruins'.  These ruins are in the Dragon Pass region but
> > where?  Who can tell me?
>
> In the Grazelands.  If you have the Wilms Church map of Dragon Pass then
> it is the ruins between Queens Post and the Wild Temple.  In the Dragon
> Pass Gazetteer, they lie on the western edge of the map.
>
> --Peter Metcalfe
>

2009/9/12 valkoharja <rintasaa@...>
> European medieval stuff has been overused from D&D onwards. I prefer Faris
to knight when it comes to Gloranthan west:

That it's used in totally different games might explain why it's not to some
people's preferences, but it doesn't really seem particularly coherent an
argument to me. Precisely the same could be said about my preference for
Hussars though I suppose! :)

--
John Machin
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
- Athanasius Kircher, 'The Great Art of Knowledge'.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Blood over Gold gives a small look at what trade takes place between cities,
but I was hoping to get a more global view of how the societies are
interconnected. But in most background and scenarios the goal of "trade" has
always been an abstract unless it is a specific regions trademark good (e.g
Clearwine).
Not sure if this is covered at all in Men of the Sea, but I was hoping to
find out what products are created for export from various regions (Peloria,
Maniria, Ralios, Technos, etc.) and who they trade these to. Especially
items that are Glorantha-specific, such as the drug Hazia or the rare
Truestone-crafted item or slave bracelets.

One of the reasons listed for the Lunars to push themselves as far as Holy
Country was access to the sea so they could expand their trade and make the
aristocrats--and thereby the empire--more wealthy. But what are they
intending to export and import? That I have always been unclear on.

--Todd


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Todd Gardiner asks about trade in Glorantha and, specifically, what "trade"
goals the Lunars had to conquer the Holy Country.

I doubt that the goal had anything to do with making the empire wealthier. In
the real world, many of these kinds of decisions came about because the crown
swapped a monopoly of some sort for financial assistance, and the monopolists
then dragged the crown into a conflict, initially through privately
raised forces. Those would be the aristocrats you mention. It also feeds nicely
into the existing stories about how the leadership of the conquest changed over
time.

In terms of what gets traded, the problem is that there is little riverine
transport available to get things uphill to Dragon Pass. I suspect that the
Lunars didn't really understand that at first. They probably looked at  map and
saw a big Creek-Stream River system that they could use. There would be local
problems to overcome. The most familiar to them woud have been Snakepipe Hollow;
if there's anyone that could manage a trading route through there, it would be
the Lunars. So then they came up with a list of all th wonderful things that
could be imported by barge up the Creek-Stream River portaged either across
Dragon Pass or through Snakepipe Hollow to the headwaters of the Pelorian river
basin. Pickled fish, beers, sugar, spices, western iron, tropical hardwoods,
linen and cotton cloth, parchment, tobacco, and so on. The conspirators probably
divided out the monopolies.

Then, it turned out that riverine transport was really problematic. The chaos in
Snakepipe Hollow wasn't so tame. Dredging a canal through Delecti's swamp isn't
quite so easy as in the marshes in Peloria. Getting passage through the
underground rivers of the Plateau of Glass is pretty rough, too. Plus the
entities in the Creek-Stream River aren't as friendly as those in the Pelorian
rivers. And then there are the natives. So, the uphill transport from the sea
only makes sense for products that have a high value to volume and weight.
Parchment, spices, and sugar probably make it. Cloth, tobacco, and iron are
risky, Pickled fish, beer, and hardwoods don't make it. Certainly grain, yarn,
and raw cotton are out of the question.

That would create divisions among the monopolists. Some would position to
re-allocate the monopolies. Others would lobby the crown to fix the transport
problems, presumably through taxes on the successful monopolists. (Maybe someone
should look into these magical draconic roads that the locals talk about!) And
the monopolists with the valuable monopolies would resist these changes. Each
side looks for allies. (PC's enter stage right.)

To get the flavor of all this, I recommend volume 1 of Murray Rothbard's
"Conceived in Libery," which is available for free online at
http://mises.org/books/conceived1.pdf. He' a libertarian economist and
philosopher, but his descriptions of how the American colonies were generally
organized by scheming political monopolists is highly amusing, regardless of
your politics. He conveys a great sense of the conflicts between different
monopolists and between the monopolists and the settlers they tried to rule and
between the monopolists and the crown.

Chris Lemens

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Todd Gardiner wrote:
...
> in most background and scenarios the goal of "trade" has
> always been an abstract unless it is a specific regions trademark good (e.g
> Clearwine).
> Not sure if this is covered at all in Men of the Sea, but I was hoping to
> find out what products are created for export from various regions (Peloria,
> Maniria, Ralios, Technos, etc.) and who they trade these to.
...

[from my campaign notes]

Pelandan Trade
==============
Pelandan city-states are small, extending at most sixty kilometres from
their city, and the cities are also small, having a few thousand
inhabitants. Carting grain, and other bulky necessities, between the
city and the countryside is therefore practical.

The Dedizoraru ruthlessly enforce their monopoly of the long range,
river trade on the River Oronin and its tributaries. They export the
superior craft goods of Pelanda in exchange for bulk imports of
foodstuffs, especially rice and wheat from Dara Happa. Without this
trade the cities would starve.