Peter :

> >In fact, from an average shaman's POV, Integration of Spirits is a
> >reinforcement of Identity ; and moving away from the Community.
>
> But the spirits that the Shaman integrates are losing _their_
> identity irreversibly.  If they are well-loved spirits of the
> shamans own tradition (like Ancestors), then this is going to
> be seen as a Bad Thing.

An interesting point.

I don't think that that is a universal truth, but in many Traditions that can
certainly be true.

Come to think of it, Ancestral shamanism is poorly represented by the GL
World-View. It should probably be a Borderline magic, half-way between
shamanism & theism ...

> The question was under what circumstances can a spirit be
> persuaded to be integrated without hitting him over the
> head.

And a good question it is !

Thing is, despite the fact (I would say) that various methods of Integration
are possible, I think that a good rule of thumb for HW is to remember that they
all involve some form of difficulty (and most likely psychic trauma) that can
be well represented by your 'hitting him over the head' suggestion.

In fact, I would say that more peaceful, politically correct, hippy-type
shamans who integrate Spirits with a Peace & Love attitude actually have to hit
*themselves* in the head, so to speak (using rigourously similar game
mechanics) : that is, spiritually combat their own petty non-Integrated selves
(their Id Monsters ?) to allow greater one-ness with the macrocosm ...

The details will vary, in other words, but the HW mechanics should be
remarkably similar in all cases ...

cheers,

Julian Lord

David & Peter :

> >> [if you integrate an ancestor] You end up like Norman Bates IMO.
>
> >I'm not so sure. We don't have an example (the Grazers don't
> >integrate ancestors), but it's quite conceivable that you simply are
> >"as brave as Drosox" or "as good with words as Elebel" if you've
> >integrated that aspect of them.
>
> But once you integrated them (and you can only integrate them
> once), they cease to have a separate existence and can't be
> contacted by anybody else.

Until you die.

I think that *much* depends on whether your Magical Tradition is Inclusive or
Exclusive. Baboon shamans consider their Ancestors to be part of the Tribe ;
and while they don't Integrate them, they don't consider them to have so much
separate existence (They Are Us : We Are They) as a Kolating would consider the
Storm Spirits to enjoy.

I think that it would be a bad idea to encourage a One True Shamanism approach,
beyond any necessary cohesion of HW rules issues.

> And it's more of "has Drosox's
> bravery" or "has Elebel's way with words" than the weaker forms
> you suggest.  That's why I don't think that ancestors as a
> general rule are integrated.

Another solution : perhaps "Drosox' bravery" is one of Drosox' Integrated
Spirits, that his descendant can magically inherit/wrest/Integrate from his
Ancestor ?

> I would instead prefer to channel ancestor (described in
> Heroforming) instead.

Another good solution.

cheers,

Julian Lord

Julian Lord:

>Me> But once you integrated them (and you can only integrate them
> > once), they cease to have a separate existence and can't be
> > contacted by anybody else.

>Until you die.

Considering that most ghosts still have magic, I doubt this.

>I think that *much* depends on whether your Magical Tradition is
>Inclusive or Exclusive.

I would really need a definition of Inclusive or Exclusive traditions
before I can comment further.

>Baboon shamans consider their Ancestors to be part of the Tribe ;
>and while they don't Integrate them, they don't consider them to
>have so much separate existence (They Are Us : We Are They) as a
>Kolating would consider the Storm Spirits to enjoy.

But if They Are Us, then they would view the integration of
an ancestor to be the moral equivalent of taking another
baboon's life.  Which leaves us where we started.

>I think that it would be a bad idea to encourage a One True Shamanism
>approach, beyond any necessary cohesion of HW rules issues.

I simply pointed out that whomever integrated their ancestors
would have to deal with the issue of the extinction of their
ancestor's individuality (and also the consequent wastage of
talents).  This isn't a blanket "Nobody shall integrate
ancestors", but rather "I would like to see a plausible reason
for a culture to integrate ancestors".

>Another solution : perhaps "Drosox' bravery" is one of Drosox'
>Integrated Spirits, that his descendant can magically
>inherit/wrest/Integrate from his Ancestor ?

Ripping integrated spirits from people has been stated as
something that only great spirits could do.  I don't think
it's a common animist technique.

--Peter Metcalfe

Julian Lord:

> > But the spirits that the Shaman integrates are losing _their_
> > identity irreversibly.  If they are well-loved spirits of the
> > shamans own tradition (like Ancestors), then this is going to
> > be seen as a Bad Thing.

>I don't think that that is a universal truth,

It is a universal truth for those cultures that practice
integration as described in the Hero Wars rules.   If they
use some other magic with a similar effect but without the
consequences, that's fine and dandy.

In such a case, I prefer to see a statement of why the culture's
magic differs.  I doubt it is a case of "Our integration is the
same as the HW-rules save that the individuality of the spirit
is not extinguished".  I could accept something like "after death,
our ancestors split off from our core self" but that to me would
imply that all other integrated spirits also split off as it is
extremely unlikely that a culture has two integration techniques.

>Come to think of it, Ancestral shamanism is poorly represented by
>the GL World-View. It should probably be a Borderline magic,
>half-way between shamanism & theism ...

Just because you worship something doesn't make it theistic.

>Thing is, despite the fact (I would say) that various methods of
>Integration are possible, I think that a good rule of thumb for
>HW is to remember that they all involve some form of difficulty
>(and most likely psychic trauma) that can be well represented by
>your 'hitting him over the head' suggestion.

In other words, Spirits can be integrated only through the Spirit
Combat option?  I thought I was the person trying to impose the
One True Shamanism?  I do accept a contest in trying to persuade
the spirit but this could be something as unstressful as singing
the right song.

>In fact, I would say that more peaceful, politically correct,
>hippy-type shamans who integrate Spirits with a Peace & Love
>attitude actually have to hit *themselves* in the head, so to
>speak (using rigourously similar game mechanics) : that is,
>spiritually combat their own petty non-Integrated selves (their
>Id Monsters ?) to allow greater one-ness with the macrocosm ...

Why don't they smoke dope instead?  Saves on the headache resulting
from doing spirit combat against self...

--Peter Metcalfe

Peter :

> > > But the spirits that the Shaman integrates are losing _their_
> > > identity irreversibly.  If they are well-loved spirits of the
> > > shamans own tradition (like Ancestors), then this is going to
> > > be seen as a Bad Thing.
>
> >I don't think that that is a universal truth,
>
> It is a universal truth for those cultures that practice
> integration as described in the Hero Wars rules.

Yes, but not what I meant, y'know ...

> In such a case, I prefer to see a statement of why the culture's
> magic differs.

Exactly.

> I doubt it is a case of "Our integration is the
> same as the HW-rules save that the individuality of the spirit
> is not extinguished".

Well no, that wouldn't make sense from a rules POV.
Their Spirits would have to be a kind of Follower/Ally/Slave instead.

> I could accept something like "after death,
> our ancestors split off from our core self" but that to me would
> imply that all other integrated spirits also split off as it is
> extremely unlikely that a culture has two integration techniques.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this.

> >Come to think of it, Ancestral shamanism is poorly represented by
> >the GL World-View. It should probably be a Borderline magic,
> >half-way between shamanism & theism ...
>
> Just because you worship something doesn't make it theistic.

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it's a *borderline* case,
with *all* that this implies. It's more of a 'neither theism nor
shamanism' thing than a 'theism and shamanism' one IMO,
if that makes sense ...

... ie there are no Multi-Class Baboon Rune Lord/Shamans IMG ...

(although they sound like a lot of MGF ; perhaps there *should* be ...)

> >Thing is, despite the fact (I would say) that various methods of
> >Integration are possible, I think that a good rule of thumb for
> >HW is to remember that they all involve some form of difficulty
> >(and most likely psychic trauma) that can be well represented by
> >your 'hitting him over the head' suggestion.
>
> In other words, Spirits can be integrated only through the Spirit
> Combat option?

No. 'most likely'. ie I was attempting to agree with you.

> I thought I was the person trying to impose the
> One True Shamanism?

Whoops : sorry if you took my statement badly.
No ad hominem offensiveness intended.

> I do accept a contest in trying to persuade
> the spirit but this could be something as unstressful as singing
> the right song.

I agree. But then, that also could be seen as a form of Spirit
Combat from some POVs, no ?

Erm ... are we argueing past each other again, Peter ?
I honestly *can't* detect any fundamental disagreement here ...

> Why don't they smoke dope instead?

They're too busy smoking opium ...

cheers,

Julian Lord

Peter :

> > > But once you integrated them (and you can only integrate them
> > > once), they cease to have a separate existence and can't be
> > > contacted by anybody else.
>
> >Until you die.
>
> Considering that most ghosts still have magic, I doubt this.

Hm. Touché !

I will state the first sentence of 'Integration of Spirits' HW p. 211 as a
defence, though : 'Some animist traditions recognize that humans are incomplete
parts of nature, and that parts of people normally exist outside of one's
body'.

(emphasis on 'body')

Combining this statement and my own view with your sensible objection, I would
tend to conclude that Spirits can either be Integrated into a character's Body,
or into his Spirit.

> >I think that *much* depends on whether your Magical Tradition is
> >Inclusive or Exclusive.
>
> I would really need a definition of Inclusive or Exclusive traditions
> before I can comment further.

Exclusive Traditions would be those that consider the Spirit World to be an
Alien World, while Inclusive ones are aware of no such boundary between
themselves and their magic.

Kolatings : Exclusive  Aldryami : Inclusive.

Hmmmm ... should we move this to the GD ?
The discussion might be getting a little bit too esoteric for this list ...

> >Baboon shamans consider their Ancestors to be part of the Tribe ;
> >and while they don't Integrate them, they don't consider them to
> >have so much separate existence (They Are Us : We Are They) as a
> >Kolating would consider the Storm Spirits to enjoy.
>
> But if They Are Us, then they would view the integration of
> an ancestor to be the moral equivalent of taking another
> baboon's life.  Which leaves us where we started.

No it doesn't. Baboons are likely to consider themselves as reincarnations of
their Ancestors in the first place, and Manifesting (no I-word : bad!) their
Ancestors within themselves would be more akin to awakening an old memory than
destroying it.

Which is in fact why I agreed that your ancestor channeling suggestion was a
good solution. Unqualified.

But I don't think that it's the *only* solution.

> >I think that it would be a bad idea to encourage a One True Shamanism
> >approach, beyond any necessary cohesion of HW rules issues.
>
> I simply pointed out that whomever integrated their ancestors
> would have to deal with the issue of the extinction of their
> ancestor's individuality (and also the consequent wastage of
> talents).  This isn't a blanket "Nobody shall integrate
> ancestors", but rather "I would like to see a plausible reason
> for a culture to integrate ancestors".

Well, fair enough. But I personally don't believe that Integrating a Spirit
systematically destroys its individuality. YGMV.

> >Another solution : perhaps "Drosox' bravery" is one of Drosox'
> >Integrated Spirits, that his descendant can magically
> >inherit/wrest/Integrate from his Ancestor ?
>
> Ripping integrated spirits from people has been stated as
> something that only great spirits could do.  I don't think
> it's a common animist technique.

I'm not sure that this is relevant to Ancestor Worship. You could certainly go
on an Animist HQ to meet your Ancestor, Drosox : and perhaps wager something of
yours against his bravery. Many different forms of such a Contest can be
envisaged ; some hostile, some neutral, and some friendly ; depending, I
suppose, on whose skeleton, exactly, has been hidden in the family closet ...

Also, I'm not really sure that dead people have so much person-ness as living
ones.

And, isn't that more of a HW rule than a description of Gloranthan reality ??

cheers,

Julian Lord

Peter replies to me

>  >We don't have an example (the Grazers don't
>  >integrate ancestors), but it's quite conceivable that you simply are
>  >"as brave as Drosox" or "as good with words as Elebel" if you've
>  >integrated that aspect of them.
>
> But once you integrated them (and you can only integrate them
> once), they cease to have a separate existence and can't be
> contacted by anybody else.  And it's more of "has Drosox's
> bravery" or "has Elebel's way with words" than the weaker forms
> you suggest.  That's why I don't think that ancestors as a
> general rule are integrated.

As a general rule, they're not.

But in my hypothetical small band culture, you only integrate an
ancestor with your own name, and no two living people would have the
same name. It's eminently practical.

> I would instead prefer to channel ancestor (described in
> Heroforming) instead.

This is a tradition secret, so it's likely to be quite rare.

> spirits that the Shaman integrates are losing _their_
> identity irreversibly.  If they are well-loved spirits of the
> shamans own tradition (like Ancestors), then this is going to
> be seen as a Bad Thing.

I don't think it's irreversible -- once Drosox the younger dies, his
great-grandson is free to integrate the original Drosox.

Also note that to a hsunchen, it's quite likely that the totem
spirits you're integrating are in fact a distant ancestor...


David Dunham   <mailto:dunham@...>
Glorantha/HW/RQ page: <http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha.html>
Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

On Sat, 1 Jul 2000 08:11:55 -0700, David Dunham <david@...>
wrote:

>> But once you integrated them (and you can only integrate them
>> once), they cease to have a separate existence and can't be
>> contacted by anybody else.  And it's more of "has Drosox's
>> bravery" or "has Elebel's way with words" than the weaker forms
>> you suggest.  That's why I don't think that ancestors as a
>> general rule are integrated.

I have thought of one possible solution, though it doesn't quite gel
with the strict reading of the rules. That is, when an friendly spirit
is persuaded to allow Integration, it can surrender it's ability,
splitting off a piece of it's self to be Integrated. Thus the
spirit/Ancestor continues as a separate entity, but the Shaman gets
it's ability Integrated. Less than a Total success means the spirit
only lends the Shaman the ability for a few uses a day. The total
surrender of an ability to be Integrated would be quite a sacrifice,
and would require considerable further worship, or that ancestor,
although he can't take the ability back, could get some of his friends
together and do you over sometime inconvenient...

Wulf

Julian Lord:

> > I could accept something like "after death,
> > our ancestors split off from our core self" but that to me would
> > imply that all other integrated spirits also split off as it is
> > extremely unlikely that a culture has two integration techniques.

>I'm sorry, but I don't understand this.

Why would Ancestors split off at death and not the other integrated
spirits?

> > >Come to think of it, Ancestral shamanism is poorly represented by
> > >the GL World-View. It should probably be a Borderline magic,
> > >half-way between shamanism & theism ...

> > Just because you worship something doesn't make it theistic.

>Not what I'm saying.

Then what parts of ancestor worship look theistic to you?  Worship
is not a theistic act.

> > I do accept a contest in trying to persuade
> > the spirit but this could be something as unstressful as singing
> > the right song.

>I agree. But then, that also could be seen as a form of Spirit
>Combat from some POVs, no ?

True, but I'm using Spirit Combat to mean the use of Spirit
Combat the HW skill.  If he was Singing, then he would use
Sing.

--Peter Metcalfe

Julian Lord:

> > Considering that most ghosts still have magic, I doubt [integrated
> > spirits are released after death].

>I will state the first sentence of 'Integration of Spirits' HW p. 211
>as a defence, though : 'Some animist traditions recognize that humans
>are incomplete parts of nature, and that parts of people normally exist
>outside of one's body'.
>
>(emphasis on 'body')

I'm aware of this but I'm finding it very hard to think of a culture
that thinks that an ancestor is a part of oneself that exists outside
the body.  An Ancestor is the spirit of your relatives and are normally
recognized by you as having independent existence whether alive or
dead.

>Combining this statement and my own view with your sensible objection,
>I would tend to conclude that Spirits can either be Integrated into a
>character's Body, or into his Spirit.

Integration into a body would be a tattoo fetish and there's no
problem with having an ancestor in a fetish.

> > I would really need a definition of Inclusive or Exclusive traditions
> > before I can comment further.

>Exclusive Traditions would be those that consider the Spirit World to be an
>Alien World, while Inclusive ones are aware of no such boundary between
>themselves and their magic.

>Kolatings : Exclusive  Aldryami : Inclusive.

The Kolatings do not consider the Spirit World to be alien and
his demense specifically lies there.

> > But if They Are Us, then [Baboons] would view the integration of
> > an ancestor to be the moral equivalent of taking another
> > baboon's life.  Which leaves us where we started.

>No it doesn't. Baboons are likely to consider themselves as reincarnations
>of their Ancestors in the first place, and Manifesting (no I-word : bad!)
>their Ancestors within themselves would be more akin to awakening an old
>memory than destroying it.

>Which is in fact why I agreed that your ancestor channeling suggestion was a
>good solution. Unqualified.

I'm not interested in whether Baboons manifest/channel their
ancestors, I'm interested in how those cultures (if any) that
integrate their ancestors (as defined in the RQ3^H^H^H HW rules)
justify their practice.

> > This isn't a blanket "Nobody shall integrate
> > ancestors", but rather "I would like to see a plausible reason
> > for a culture to integrate ancestors".

>Well, fair enough. But I personally don't believe that Integrating
>a Spirit systematically destroys its individuality. YGMV.

But the HW rules on integration do imply this.

> > Ripping integrated spirits from people has been stated as
> > something that only great spirits could do.  I don't think
> > it's a common animist technique.

>I'm not sure that this is relevant to Ancestor Worship. You could
>certainly go on an Animist HQ to meet your Ancestor, Drosox : and
>perhaps wager something of yours against his bravery.

But Quest Challenges only occur on the God Plane.  Sorcerers
or Animists who wish to do so must travel to the God World
and face an Alien World modifier.  Because of this and also
the high amount of minimum APs required, it's far from common.

--Peter Metcalfe

David Dunham:

>But in my hypothetical small band culture, you only integrate an
>ancestor with your own name, and no two living people would have the
>same name. It's eminently practical.

And eminently wasteful in that only one talent could be gained
from the integrated ancestor.

> > I would instead prefer to channel ancestor (described in
> > Heroforming) instead.

>This is a tradition secret, so it's likely to be quite rare.

It's about as common as Secret Knowledge is in most societies.
It exists among the Pentans ("[Kargzant's] elite followers
can transform themselves into blazing fiery horses" Glorantha
Intro p163) and probably the Praxians too (as in Waha/Jaldon).

> > spirits that the Shaman integrates are losing _their_
> > identity irreversibly.  If they are well-loved spirits of the
> > shamans own tradition (like Ancestors), then this is going to
> > be seen as a Bad Thing.

>I don't think it's irreversible -- once Drosox the younger dies, his
>great-grandson is free to integrate the original Drosox.

There's nothing to show that integration vanishes after death
and I think it unlikely as it would mean that ancestors and
other ghosts will have no magic.  Not that it makes much
difference to your example - the great-grandson integrates
Drosox the younger who is now the same as Drosox the original.

>Also note that to a hsunchen, it's quite likely that the totem
>spirits you're integrating are in fact a distant ancestor...

That is a good point.  But it doesn't quite seem to fit into
the notion of an ancestor as in the spirit of your dead
grandfather.

--Peter Metcalfe

Peter Metcalfe :

> I'm finding it very hard to think of a culture
> that thinks that an ancestor is a part of oneself that exists outside
> the body.  An Ancestor is the spirit of your relatives and are normally
> recognized by you as having independent existence whether alive or
> dead.

Ah : then this is what I would disagree with : I believe that a Bloodline in
Ancestor Worship is both a part of oneself and a part of each of one's
Ancestors and a part of one's Descendants, through which the Ancestor
magic courses, and which is a non-independent portion of them all.

> > > I would really need a definition of Inclusive or Exclusive traditions
> > > before I can comment further.
>
> >Exclusive Traditions would be those that consider the Spirit World to be an
> >Alien World, while Inclusive ones are aware of no such boundary between
> >themselves and their magic.
>
> >Kolatings : Exclusive  Aldryami : Inclusive.
>
> The Kolatings do not consider the Spirit World to be alien and
> his demense specifically lies there.

HW terminology interfering again ...

They consider the Spirit World to be separate from the Inner World, but the
Aldryami have no such concept.

Anyway, I believe to have defined Inclusive and Exclusive traditions ...

> I'm not interested in whether Baboons manifest/channel their
> ancestors, I'm interested in how those cultures (if any) that
> integrate their ancestors (as defined in the RQ3^H^H^H HW rules)
> justify their practice.

See above, & separate post.

> > > This isn't a blanket "Nobody shall integrate
> > > ancestors", but rather "I would like to see a plausible reason
> > > for a culture to integrate ancestors".
>
> >Well, fair enough. But I personally don't believe that Integrating
> >a Spirit systematically destroys its individuality. YGMV.
>
> But the HW rules on integration do imply this.

I disagree.

Hsunchen integrated Spirits in HW p.216 "cannot be removed easily", which to me
implies that it's individuality is *not* destroyed.

But I suppose that this is something that would vary from tradition to
tradition
...

> > > Ripping integrated spirits from people has been stated as
> > > something that only great spirits could do.  I don't think
> > > it's a common animist technique.
>
> >I'm not sure that this is relevant to Ancestor Worship. You could
> >certainly go on an Animist HQ to meet your Ancestor, Drosox : and
> >perhaps wager something of yours against his bravery.
>
> But Quest Challenges only occur on the God Plane.

...'Quest Challenges  "normally"  only occur on the God Plane' ...

So, exceptionally, they can occur elsewhere ?

Given that I believe that Ancestor Worship is a borderline case,
this isn't an objection that worries me ...

cheers,

Julian Lord

Peter Metcalfe :

> > > I could accept something like "after death,
> > > our ancestors split off from our core self" but that to me would
> > > imply that all other integrated spirits also split off as it is
> > > extremely unlikely that a culture has two integration techniques.
>
> >I'm sorry, but I don't understand this.
>
> Why would Ancestors split off at death and not the other integrated
> spirits?

Ah ; I see.

Because Ancestors for part of a magical bloodline that is transmitted through
Sex & Death ; and the 'simple' act of procreation creates a Descendant who is
transcendentally imbued with the Ancestors' Magic, and the power to contact
them, unless (perhaps) they are currently Integrated or otherwise
Manifest/Imprisoned elsewhere than in the ordinary Otherside of your Ancestors
? But another Integrated Spirit isn't part of the bloodline, and therefore
remains bound within the magical aura of the dead one, as a Spirit captured
into the Tradition by your Ancestor ?

> > > >Come to think of it, Ancestral shamanism is poorly represented by
> > > >the GL World-View. It should probably be a Borderline magic,
> > > >half-way between shamanism & theism ...
>
> > > Just because you worship something doesn't make it theistic.
>
> >Not what I'm saying.
>
> Then what parts of ancestor worship look theistic to you?  Worship
> is not a theistic act.

Hmmm ... I'm more or less happy to game with such HW roolz distinctions, but
they're not entirely satisfying.

As an illustration of what I'm trying to say (but we seem to have reached un
unfortunate barrier of HW terminology) the Worship of his Ancestors by Raus of
Rone, and the Worship of the Ancestral Baboons by their descendants are both
forms of Ancestor Worship. It appears logical, then, that Ancestor Worship is a
borderline religious technique.

As to which parts of ancestor worship look theistic to me, well : that's
trickier, because Ancestor Worship isn't a parti-coloured philosophy of magic
from any POV, but a cohesive and internally coherent one : the Ancestors live
in the Otherworld ; They are Us & We are They ; they live on through us, as we
will live on in the blood of our descendants ; & they are the source of our
magic.

Now ; this obviously resembles HW animism more than anything else ; but, if
your Ancestors happen to be a clan of sorcerors with their own Grimoire ; or if
the Founder of your Family is a demigod, providing Theistic Feats to his
descendants ; or if you are a grunting baboon ; in any case, there must be some
rules for Ancestor Worship common to all of these particular cases (although it
shouldn't be necessary to come up with an extra non-4/5/X-Worlds method of
magic for AW).

does that make sense ?

cheers,

Julian Lord

On Sat, 01 Jul 2000 19:17:55 +0100, Wulf Corbett
<wulfc@...> wrote:

>I have thought of one possible solution, though it doesn't quite gel
>with the strict reading of the rules. That is, when an friendly spirit
>is persuaded to allow Integration, it can surrender it's ability,
>splitting off a piece of it's self to be Integrated.

Incidently, re-reading the Animist magic section, I can see some
support for this (albeit by a pretty liberal interpretation of the
statements made!). For instance:

"...An Integrated spirit will give only one ability as a talent..." -
it doesn't say the whole spirit is Integrated, just one ability.

"...the Hsunchen will Integrate other parts of his totem..." - so they
do come in parts, which may have split from a whole.

"...several talents already Integrated..." - it says talents, not
spirits.

OK, I know it's probably not the original intention, but I do think it
works. The important idea is to allow spirits to voluntarily (with the
assistance of a shaman) split off an ability.

Wulf

Sorry to toss a speed bump into these esoteric discussions of 'Linear
and Non-Linear Spiritual Dynamics in a Chaotic Medium', but I have a
rather more mundane question I'm looking for some help with :)

Can someone point me to a list of sample names for various Gloranthan
cultures?  It helps to show players what types of names are
appropriate for the culture their character is from, and I'm having
little luck finding such a resource...

Help, please?

Thanks,
Tom Bagwell

What do inititiate and devotees do with all the time they dedicate to their
gods?

An initiate spends 30% (and a devotee 60%) of their time "in worship" (HW:RiG
pp. 184). That is, if we exclude eight hours of sleep, 5h 20min for an
initiate, 10h 40min for a devotee, each day.
Let us say an Orlanhti spends the whole of Windsday in worship, 16 hours.
That leaves us with ((5:20 x 7 -16) / 6 =) 3h 30min the other days.
I cannot really imagine the ordinary heortling spending more than one full hour
absorbed in prayer each day. That still leaves 2h 30min, for what?

And what does the local temple do with all this potential work force?
Let us take what I think is a rather small clan, 500 people. Approximately 60%
will be able-bodied adults, and roughly half of these will be women. The
proverbial all, 85%, of the men worship Orlanth.
That gives the temple around 125 initiates, each spending 5h 20min every
day worshipping. Let us consider if one of these hours are spent maintinging
the physical temple, a good act of devotion. This makes 875 man-hours of work
given to the temple each week, the equivalent of a modern company with 22
employees (working eight-hour days, five days a week).

By this I would assume that even a "small" Orlanthi shrine is quite impressive..

What I really suppose is that most of this time spent "in worship" is spent
working and doing other things. It would otherwise have rather ridiculous
consequences for the whole economy and daily life among the heortlings.

And why does everybody have to be initiates? Okay, lay members are a God
Learner idea.  But why can they not be communal worshippers? (Who only (!) spend
10%, 1h 30min, a day worshipping.)

In my Glorantha I think I will replace "Most Heortling adults are initiated or
devoted..." with "Many Heortling adults are...". (HW:RiG p. 45).


  --
Henrix

On Sun, 02 Jul 2000, Thomas Bagwell wrote:
> Can someone point me to a list of sample names for various Gloranthan
> cultures?

Oliver Bernuetz has a list of Heortling names from (computer game) King of
Dragon Pass at: http://www.geocities.com/bernuetz/kodp/names.html

Other than that, I do not know. I hope the cultural players books will include
lists of example names, as it is quite handy.

--
Henrix

Peter

> I simply pointed out that whomever integrated their ancestors
> would have to deal with the issue of the extinction of their
> ancestor's individuality (and also the consequent wastage of
> talents).

Wasn't it you who said that the ancestor's personality would take over?

> I doubt it is a case of "Our integration is the
> same as the HW-rules save that the individuality of the spirit
> is not extinguished".

I'm not seeing anything in the rules that say the individuality of
the spirit is extinguished. In fact, nothing on p.211 says that a
given spirit can't give its talent to more than one person.
(Admittedly, the choice of the term "integrate" doesn't suggest this.)

But the integrated spirit may very well be in a symbiotic
relationship with its host, which ends upon the death of the latter.

I think the rules are silent on this subject and we'll simply have to
be content with our separate interpretations.


David Dunham   <mailto:dunham@...>
Glorantha/HW/RQ page: <http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha.html>
Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

>What do inititiate and devotees do with all the time they dedicate to their
>gods?
>
>An initiate spends 30% (and a devotee 60%) of their time "in worship" (HW:RiG
>pp. 184). That is, if we exclude eight hours of sleep, 5h 20min for an
>initiate, 10h 40min for a devotee, each day.
>Let us say an Orlanhti spends the whole of Windsday in worship, 16 hours.
>That leaves us with ((5:20 x 7 -16) / 6 =) 3h 30min the other days.
>I cannot really imagine the ordinary heortling spending more than one full hour
>absorbed in prayer each day. That still leaves 2h 30min, for what?

I have always interpreted this requirement as "doing things that enhance the
presence of the god" rather than "worship" per se.  So when an Orlanth the
Warrior initiate is "doing his time" he is teaching other clansmen weapon
skills, or patrolling the tula, or guarding the clan trader.  When an
Orlanth the Farmer initiate is at work she is helping clansmen with her
superior farming skills and feats.  I think the key is the idea of serving
the community, rather than simply doing one's own thing.

>And what does the local temple do with all this potential work force?
>Let us take what I think is a rather small clan, 500 people. Approximately 60%
>will be able-bodied adults, and roughly half of these will be women. The
>proverbial all, 85%, of the men worship Orlanth.
>That gives the temple around 125 initiates, each spending 5h 20min every
>day worshipping. Let us consider if one of these hours are spent maintinging
>the physical temple, a good act of devotion. This makes 875 man-hours of work
>given to the temple each week, the equivalent of a modern company with 22
>employees (working eight-hour days, five days a week).
>
>By this I would assume that even a "small" Orlanthi shrine is quite
impressive..

It is important to bear in mind the difference between the general communal
worship and becoming an inititate of one of the specific aspects of the
gods.  I think most heortling adults become "initiates" of Orlanth and
Ernalda (i.e., they have the Worship Orlanth and Ernalda keyword) but most
probably don't become initiates of Ernalda the Mother or Orlanth Lawspeaker.
These inititates are sopecialists, who get some level of material support
from the community as a whole in return for using their special skills for
the benefit of the community as a whole.  A devotee is someone who has gone
even further down the road of specialization.  Thus, most heortlings do not
devote 30% of their time to the gods.

>What I really suppose is that most of this time spent "in worship" is spent
>working and doing other things. It would otherwise have rather ridiculous
>consequences for the whole economy and daily life among the heortlings.
>
>And why does everybody have to be initiates? Okay, lay members are a God
>Learner idea.  But why can they not be communal worshippers? (Who only (!)
spend
>10%, 1h 30min, a day worshipping.)

Given that Orlanth and Ernalda are the central figures in all communal
action, I think that this time spent "worshipping" is time spent helping
other people in the community raise barns, clear new fields, etc...  Also,
much of this time is probably spent on projects that the clan ring proposes,
such as a new watchtower.  All actions benefiting the community act to
strengthen Orlanth and Ernalda's "way."

>In my Glorantha I think I will replace "Most Heortling adults are initiated or
>devoted..." with "Many Heortling adults are...". (HW:RiG p. 45).
>

As always, its your game! :)

Gerald Bosch
gbosch@...
"Control the children of Earth!"

Henrix wrote:

> In my Glorantha I think I will replace "Most Heortling adults are
> initiated or devoted..." with "Many Heortling adults are...".

Remember that a "Heortling most" (following in the footsteps of the
notorious "Orlanthi all") is c.43%... you may not need to redefine them as
commies.

More seriously, much worship of a Culture Hero (such as Waha or Orlanth)
consists of acting as that Culture Hero would have acted. Not praying, or
pratting around in Temples. Just *being* a good Praxian or Heortling is all
the god expects.

Cheers, Nick

Nick, answering Henrix :

> much worship of a Culture Hero (such as Waha or Orlanth)
> consists of acting as that Culture Hero would have acted. Not praying, or
> pratting around in Temples. Just *being* a good Praxian or Heortling is all
> the god expects.

I beg to differ : so, an Initiate of Orlanth *must* be a good Heortling
only 30% of the time ??

I think that it's just a game mechanic that tells you, in a roundabout way,
how many cults you can be a simultaneous Initiative of.

(pardon my roundabout syntax)

cheers,

Julian Lord

P.S.

> Remember that a "Heortling most" (following in the footsteps of the
> notorious "Orlanthi all") is c.43%... you may not need to redefine them as
> commies.
>
> More seriously, ...

IMO, this is a far more sensible interpretation than your subsequent one ...

Orlanthi 'most' = 43% : an excellent rule that I *will* use IMG.

Robin Asked
>>  It also has a KoDP Review
>
>Favorable?

Yes. They don't provide ratings, but the Review (by Bruce Ferrie, who
also provided the HW NPC) is favourable. I'll quote the synopsis

"An excellent, thoughtful game that genuinely rewards repeated play.
Not suited to players looking for flashy, wizz-bang action however. A
distinctive and rich gaming experience, this game is also fantastic
source material for the Hero Wars RPG"

So nothing for you or David to feel ashamed of quoting I think!

--
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Tim Ellis           EMail tim@...                      |
| What is the use of a book without pictures or conversations?            |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+

> And eminently wasteful in that only one talent could be gained
> from the integrated ancestor.
>
> > > I would instead prefer to channel ancestor (described in
> > > Heroforming) instead.
>
> >This is a tradition secret, so it's likely to be quite rare.
>
> It's about as common as Secret Knowledge is in most societies.

Actually, it may be more common.  Unlike a theist, who requires
knowing *all* the cult affinities at 1w2, a hsunchen can learn their
'secret' by getting 1w in 3 of the talents provided by intergrated
spirits.

Its possible that secrets provided by other traditions are equally
usable -- the one provided by the Ostin The Burner, for instance.  I
am not sure however, at what level that spirit cult would provide the
Secret -- though all the people who have the Breathe Fire ability
qualify under 3 1w talents but not under having things at 1w2...

Which would be easier done than the theist secret, certainly.

> It exists among the Pentans ("[Kargzant's] elite followers
> can transform themselves into blazing fiery horses" Glorantha
> Intro p163) and probably the Praxians too (as in Waha/Jaldon).
>
> >great-grandson is free to integrate the original Drosox.
>
> There's nothing to show that integration vanishes after death
> and I think it unlikely as it would mean that ancestors and
> other ghosts will have no magic.  Not that it makes much
> difference to your example - the great-grandson integrates
> Drosox the younger who is now the same as Drosox the original.

This would create an ever-increasing Drosox with each generation (I
am
Drosox of Borg, you will be assimilated!)

> >Also note that to a hsunchen, it's quite likely that the totem
> >spirits you're integrating are in fact a distant ancestor...
>
> That is a good point.  But it doesn't quite seem to fit into
> the notion of an ancestor as in the spirit of your dead
> grandfather.
>
> --Peter Metcalfe

And in the case of the hsunchen, they DO practice intergration as a
matter of course.  With the 'secret' of an Ancestor tradtion being
learned when three talents (or fetishes?) are gotten to 1w, then
Incarnation is readily done....

Jeff

"..the black flies, the little black flies. Always the
blackfliesnomatterwhere you go..."

> > But Quest Challenges only occur on the God Plane.
>
> ...'Quest Challenges  "normally"  only occur on the God Plane' ...
>
> So, exceptionally, they can occur elsewhere ?

As far as I know, they can only happen on the Hero Plane.

> Given that I believe that Ancestor Worship is a borderline case,
> this isn't an objection that worries me ...

I fear that you may be mistaken in this.  Ancestor 'worship' is one
of
the clearest cases of straight up Animism I can think of.  No gods in
volved and Daka Fal is a Great Spirit...

Jeff

--- In HeroWars@egroups.com, "Thomas Bagwell" <tnbagwell@m...> wrote:
> Sorry to toss a speed bump into these esoteric discussions of
'Linear
> and Non-Linear Spiritual Dynamics in a Chaotic Medium', but I have
a
> rather more mundane question I'm looking for some help with :)

I am sorry!  The discussion has gotten a bit too esoteric and
possibly
a bit inflexible...  =(

There's some great names in King of Dragon Pass, of course.  That
gives many, many of the common Sartarite names.

King of Sartar, avaialbe from Wizard's Attic has lots of names as
well, Sartarite, Esrolian and Pelorian, mostly.

> Can someone point me to a list of sample names for various
Gloranthan
> cultures?  It helps to show players what types of names are
> appropriate for the culture their character is from, and I'm having
> little luck finding such a resource...
>
> Help, please?

Hope that helps.  The Deluex game has a package of twenty four sample
characters.  From www.issaries.com there is a wonderful links page,
and in it there are a lot of peoples game's with names there.  I'd
suggest Dave Dunham's page.

And going through the Issaries site's Reference Library files has a l
lot of names.

Sadly, there's no LIST of names on the Issaries site.  Perhaps
someone
would be willing to compile one?

For Pelorians, often anything vaguely greek or roman works.
Heortlings are more celtic or perhaps germanic in tone.

For the praxian nomads, use something with an Amerind feel.  The
Pentan nomads would be more Mongol sounding, frex.

This is all of the top of my flat little head and others may have
more
detailed files available.

Hope it helps.

Jeff

--- In HeroWars@egroups.com, Henrix <henrix@p...> wrote:
> What do inititiate and devotees do with all the time they dedicate
to their
> gods?
>
> An initiate spends 30% (and a devotee 60%) of their time "in
worship" (HW:RiG
> pp. 184). That is, if we exclude eight hours of sleep, 5h 20min for
an

I sense a lot of mechanistic stuff comming up... Sigh.

> initiate, 10h 40min for a devotee, each day.
> Let us say an Orlanhti spends the whole of Windsday in worship, 16
hours.
> That leaves us with ((5:20 x 7 -16) / 6 =) 3h 30min the other days.
> I cannot really imagine the ordinary heortling spending more than
one full hour
> absorbed in prayer each day. That still leaves 2h 30min, for what?

It says in the HW rules that they do things which are helpful to the
god.

This could be - Prayer.  Invisible God types spend a LOT of time
doing
that.  Training others in the ways of the cult.  Helping support the
priest -- he needs his field ploughed too, y'know.  Guarding the
Temple to keep out wicked un-believers.  Training the youngsters in
combat arts (for the resident Humakti or combat oriented Orlanthi)

Doing Things The God Favors.  Any hunting would be auspicious to
Odayla or Yinkin.  Seducing someone new would be pleasing to Yinkin
(as would be sleeping on top of a warm stove)

Perhaps a god-talker needs an escort on heroquest or some strong arms
to haul something heavy down to the big temple in Runegate.

Perhaps the resident priest needs you go and pick up some sacrificial
sheep from the Cyrlings -- they have the best sheep afterall.


> And what does the local temple do with all this potential work
force?

I think I've mentioned some of the things above.  And prayer for an
hour is not uncommon -- Think that you probably have a holy day
weekly
and that's 8 hours there.

> Let us take what I think is a rather small clan, 500 people.
Approximately 60%
> will be able-bodied adults, and roughly half of these will be
women.
The
> proverbial all, 85%, of the men worship Orlanth.

Hmmm.  Number crunching.

> That gives the temple around 125 initiates, each spending 5h 20min
every

> day worshipping. Let us consider if one of these hours are spent
maintinging
> the physical temple, a good act of devotion. This makes 875
man-hours of work

Things that support the god are considered to be appropriate, as is
mentioned in HW.

> By this I would assume that even a "small" Orlanthi shrine is quite
impressive..
\
\
> What I really suppose is that most of this time spent "in worship"
is spent
> working and doing other things. It would otherwise have rather
ridiculous
> consequences for the whole economy and daily life among the
heortlings.
>
> And why does everybody have to be initiates? Okay, lay members are
a
God
> Learner idea.  But why can they not be communal worshippers? (Who

Guard duty also counts.  That sucks up a LOT of time.  Especially if
we want a 24 hour guard.  The time spent at Sacred time is 100%
commitment, afterall.

2 guards at a time for 3 shifts is a wonderful 48 right there.  And
what about those wacky Devotees who are weaponthanes?  THEY get to
count their time guarding the rest of the clan....

Plus time spent on patrol or guarding the herds or raiding....  It
all
adds up pretty rapidly.

Recall, in THIS time and place, faith is not a strong factor in one's
life.  In almost all other times, matters of faith were often the
major concern the populace....  One hour a day is a very small price
for actual worship or ceremonies.

nly (!) spend
> 10%, 1h 30min, a day worshipping.)
>
> In my Glorantha I think I will replace "Most Heortling adults are
initiated or
> devoted..." with "Many Heortling adults are...". (HW:RiG p. 45).

Almost all Heortlings are initiated.  Only 1 in 4 of these are
devotees and many of those are god-talkers.

Jeff

On Sun, 02 Jul 2000, Nick Brooke wrote:
> More seriously, much worship of a Culture Hero (such as Waha or Orlanth)
> consists of acting as that Culture Hero would have acted. Not praying, or
> pratting around in Temples. Just *being* a good Praxian or Heortling is all
> the god expects.

Yes, well, English may not be my native language, but how do you fit that
interpretation into "Initiates spend approximately 30% of their time, energy
and resources in worship"?
Am I to understand that to help my neighbour is to worship Orlanth? How about
feeding the cat? Doing the dishes? Or is 30% of everything I do an act of
worship?

Or are we to, as Julian Lord suggests, ignore the rule? I am a bit tired of
ignoring rules, actually. I suppose that is what I will end up doing in
practice, though I think it is a little sad. I want HW to be a game people can
pick up and understand, and I want it to give a living, working picture of
Glorantha and her societies.

On Sun, 02 Jul 2000, Julian Lord wrote:
> I think that it's just a game mechanic that tells you, in a roundabout way,
> how many cults you can be a simultaneous Initiative of.

I do not know what Initiative cults have, but 30% of all initiates' AP is a
lot of AP ;-)

--
Henrix

--- In HeroWars@egroups.com, David Dunham <david@a...> wrote:
> Peter
> > I doubt it is a case of "Our integration is the
> > same as the HW-rules save that the individuality of the spirit
> > is not extinguished".
>
> I'm not seeing anything in the rules that say the individuality of
> the spirit is extinguished. In fact, nothing on p.211 says that a
> given spirit can't give its talent to more than one person.
> (Admittedly, the choice of the term "integrate" doesn't suggest
> this.)
>
> But the integrated spirit may very well be in a symbiotic
> relationship with its host, which ends upon the death of the latter.
>
> I think the rules are silent on this subject and we'll simply have
> to be content with our separate interpretations.

I had simply assumed that 'integrating a spirit' meant incorporating
the knowledge/ability you sought.  That way a spirit could give this
ability to a number of different people.  You are absorbing that
knowledge, integrating it into your own being.  I never assumed that
the spirit lost anything by this.

Tom B.

Henrix asks, reasonably:

>> Much worship of a Culture Hero (such as Waha or Orlanth) consists of
>> acting as that Culture Hero would have acted.

> Yes, well, English may not be my native language, but how do you fit
> that interpretation into "Initiates spend approximately 30% of their
> time, energy and resources in worship"?

Most gods aren't Culture Heroes. Most worship isn't that easy. (This
"interpretation" is derived from listening to Greg waffling on at Tentacles
last month, and doesn't come from the letter of the rules).

Besides, if you really prefer standing outside temples holding a stopwatch
("Only 4 hours 38 minutes today -- better throw in some more
genuflections!"), you are of course free to do so.

> Am I to understand that to help my neighbour is to worship Orlanth?

If done piously (because Orlanth wants you to help your fellow clansmen in
adversity), yes.

> How about feeding the cat?

If done piously (because Yinkin is Orlanth's half-brother, and supporting
your kin is a virtue), yes.

> Doing the dishes?

If done piously (because Ernalda can persuade Orlanth to do what must be
done, however much it goes against his nature), yes.

> Or is 30% of everything I do an act of worship?

No. More specifically, any time you spend acting in a pious fashion towards
a deity other than Orlanth (e.g. Yinkin, Humakt, Lhankor Mhy...) *cannot*
count towards that time. Which is, as Julian points out, the real intention
of the rule.

Cheers, Nick

Jeff Kyer :

> > Given that I believe that Ancestor Worship is a borderline case,
> > this isn't an objection that worries me ...
>
> I fear that you may be mistaken in this.  Ancestor 'worship' is one
> of the clearest cases of straight up Animism I can think of.
> No gods involved and Daka Fal is a Great Spirit...

Is Raus of Rone a straight up Animist IYO ?

More to the point, is Raus' worship of his ancestors
an Animist tradition ?

Julian Lord