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> Alternatively it could be like "father" in English. Normally
> meaning a male parent, if the first letter is capitalised it
> means a Roman Catholic priest. And there is usually a subtle
> difference in pronunciation which would be missed by those
> unfamiliar with the language.

Plus also you are usually introduced as Father John when first meeting a priest.
Thereafter you use the honorific Father.  There is rarely any confusion in
catholic families which father is meant.  The only confusion comes from
outsiders who perhaps don't know you are catholic.

In conversation I'm sure that Esrolians would talk about "...my grandmother
Dorenda...", meaning mother of my parent and would say "...Grandmother Orenda.."
meaning the village elder.  Again the only confusion will be to outsiders, and
those that want to have long term good relations with Esrolians would have to
have some knowledge of their customs to make sure they aren't making some big
mistake.

I'm going to take this Grandmother debate on a tangent, not sure if
anyone wants to follow it but I am sure it is better suited to the
Glorantha Mailing List so I will post it there.

See Title: Grandmother, a patriarchal concept?

YGWV

Quoting Jamie <anti.spam@...>:

> I'm going to take this Grandmother debate on a tangent, not sure if
> anyone wants to follow it but I am sure it is better suited to the
> Glorantha Mailing List so I will post it there.

> Because I am shifting the emphasis of the Grandmother V grandmother
> debate I am posting here.

I?ve brought it back to this list because this is where it now belongs.

> My main concern is the way that nearly all portrayals of Matriarchal
> society in popular culture are spurious at best and often ridiculous.
>
> I would dismiss any argument that seeks to put a mirror up to
> patriarchal society as, at best, satire.

Great insight Jamie. The skewed perspecives bring about such silly
things as the effeminate males of the kingdom, etc.

> Questions that need answers before we can truly judge:
>
> 1) How did Esrolia become a Matriarchy in the first place?

I think this is clearly stated in the legends. The males had largely
killed each other, the women wanted/needed away to rule themselves,
and they formed the Dark Age society.

> 2) What does a typical family group look like?

I think this has been stated pretty clearly: a matrilineal descent.
Men move to their wife?s household, most property belongs to the
womens? families, most social decision-making is done by women.

> 3) How are family concepts extended into the wider culture?

I think this has been aswered too. The family itself has been
extended, with the councils being made up of family rulers who meet to
setle the non-amily matters.


> 4) How does this culture influence the government?

It IS the government.

========================
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
c/o Greg Stafford
1942 Shattuck AVe, #204
Berkeley, CA 94704 USA

I thought I'd just add a little material to Greg's response:

> > Questions that need answers before we can truly judge:
> > 1) How did Esrolia become a Matriarchy in the first place?
> I think this is clearly stated in the legends. The males had
largely
> killed each other, the women wanted/needed away to rule
themselves,
> and they formed the Dark Age society.

Enclosure No. 1 (now lamentably long out of print) had some
information on this.  Basically, the Vingkotling Sword and Helmsaga
culminated in the Last Royal Betrayal, where King Rastagar and the
royal house of the Vingkotlings, along with many others, were
killed. Details vary, but in general the king musters the army to
defend the Vingkotling lands from an army of chaos, and at the last
moment a segment of the army deserts and leaves the rest to be
slaughtered.  No survivors of the Kodigari dynasty survived.

After the Last Royal Betrayal, the gods were dead, so the Esrolian
Grandmothers seized power for their "own protection," after the
Sword and Helm Saga. Most of the Grandmothers are widows from the
battle.  The Grandmothers helped their people survive the Darkness.

> > 2) What does a typical family group look like?
> I think this has been stated pretty clearly: a matrilineal
descent.
> Men move to their wife?s household, most property belongs to the
> womens? families, most social decision-making is done by women.

Beyond this, I think the typical Esrolian family group looks very
much like the typical Heortling family group.  In fact, this is
within the range of known Heortling family arrangements.

> > 3) How are family concepts extended into the wider culture?
> I think this has been aswered too. The family itself has been
> extended, with the councils being made up of family rulers who
meet to
> setle the non-amily matters.

And these extended family rulers are the Esrolian Grandmothers, who
have absolute authority over the members of their extended family.
They approve or reject marriages, dispose of the personal property
of the members, and can even sell family members into slavery or
exile them.   Among the members of the family, the Grandmother's
word is absolute and final.

> > 4) How does this culture influence the government?
> It IS the government.

The Esrolian Council of Grandmothers successfully resisted all of
Belintar's efforts to reform it and the Council is the real ruler of
Esrolia - and not Belintar's governor or deputies.  The Council is
composed of all the clan Grandmothers – some 200 or more.  They
gather for two to six weeks a year at a location that rotates
according to a route established by tradition.   The Council reaches
decision by consensus and not majority rule – members can vote Yes,
Abstain or Refuse. If any Grandmother votes to Refuse a decision,
the Council must continue to debate the issue. As a result, the
meetings of the Council are often described as tedious and
everlasting.  Esrolian men are glad they don't have to attend.

It is worth pointing out that the Esrolian cities are ruled by
Queens.  The Queen deals with judgments, outsiders, and obtaining
divine blessing for the city and its inhabitants.   The city Queen
is not an absolute ruler of her city (unlike the Grandmother of her
family), but presides over the council of the city, which reaches
decision by consensus.

>>Enclosure No. 1 (now lamentably long out of print) had some
information on this. <<

You know it would be nice to try and make this, and some of the other
important material from out-of-print fan publications available again
somehow. Perhaps via PDF?

> >>Enclosure No. 1 (now lamentably long out of print) had some
> information on this. <<
>
> You know it would be nice to try and make this, and some of the other
> important material from out-of-print fan publications available again
> somehow. Perhaps via PDF?

And before someone gets on Greg's or Rick's case about them not already
having done so, those fan publications are just that - *FAN*, and it's up to
the fan publisher to do it, not Issaries or Moon Design.

Just a pre-emptive public service announcement.

RR
C'est par mon ordre et pour le bien de l'Etat que le porteur du présent a
fait ce qu'il a fait.
- Richelieu

>it's up to the fan publisher to do it, not Issaries or Moon Design.

Or potentially the author of the material, depending on the agreements
with the fan publication. In fact it is probably with the originators
that such a project would most likely need to be concieved...

In message <20060702091433.92169.qmail@...> Gavain
Sweetman writes:

>Plus also you are usually introduced as Father John when first
>meeting a priest.  Thereafter you use the honorific Father.  There
>is rarely any confusion in catholic families which father is meant.
>The only confusion comes from outsiders who perhaps don't know you
>are catholic.

Or who don't know the much about the RC church, or whose first
language is not English.

>In conversation I'm sure that Esrolians would talk about "...my
>grandmother Dorenda...", meaning mother of my parent and would say
>"...Grandmother Orenda.."  meaning the village elder.  Again the
>only confusion will be to outsiders, and those that want to have
>long term good relations with Esrolians would have to have some
>knowledge of their customs to make sure they aren't making some
>big mistake.

You reckon the average Lunar is going to bother learning the
language and culture of a bunch of barbarians?

"There's no communication problem which can't be solved by
speaking slowly and loudly in New Pelorian. After all the
Goddess gave us the language so we could all communicate
clearly so if the barbarian doesn't understand us it's either
stupidity or malice".

--
Donald Oddy
http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/

Quoting Ian Cooper <ian_hammond_cooper@...>:

>>> Enclosure No. 1 (now lamentably long out of print) had some
> information on this. <<
>
> You know it would be nice to try and make this, and some of the other
> important material from out-of-print fan publications available again
> somehow. Perhaps via PDF?

I think I'll put the Heortling data from Enclosure into the next
Heortling Unfinished work, then.

========================
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
c/o Greg Stafford
1942 Shattuck AVe, #204
Berkeley, CA 94704 USA

> I think I'll put the Heortling data from Enclosure into the next
> Heortling Unfinished work, then.

Sounds like a great idea.

Greg

>I think I'll put the Heortling data from Enclosure into the next
>Heortling Unfinished work, then.

Good idea, because I don't think it's possible to turn it into a PDF
-- I think some of the files no longer exist.
--

David Dunham
Glorantha/HQ/RQ page: http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha.html
Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

Jeff Richard wrote
>  > I bet some Heortlings are a bit surprised to find its not as
>>  universal as they thought, and are rather surprised some of the
>other
>>  cultures are unaware of it.
>
>To the extent they care whether foreigners know any of the important
>secrets of the universe.:)

	 Is the old conception of the IFWW (as people of all races and
creeds fighting together against chaos) purely a God Learner
creation, or is that the Heortling experience? Ie do Heortlings ever
find themselves aiding trolls or elves in their experience of IFWW?
	 Cheers
		 David

YGWV

Quoting David Cake <dave@...>:

> Is the old conception of the IFWW (as people of all races and
> creeds fighting together against chaos) purely a God Learner
> creation, or is that the Heortling experience?

More than anything else, I think it is a Greg Error. Part of the
Learning Curve.
But if it has to be in a Gloranthan context, it'd be more like a GL
Construct--though frankly, I doubt they really ever knew much about
this particular very secret initiation rite. (Though, come to think of
it, it is likely they learned when Heortlings joined some God Learner
organization).
IN a GL sense, they would have a sense of a Universal Initiation whose
forms were different.

> Ie do Heortlings ever
> find themselves aiding trolls or elves in their experience of IFWW?

Never. Absolutely never.
The purpose of the IFFW is in the "I," in that it is a solitary experience.


========================
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
c/o Greg Stafford
1942 Shattuck AVe, #204
Berkeley, CA 94704 USA

At 4:33 PM +0000 30/6/06, Jeff Richard wrote:
>David speaks in a particularly unflurried manner:
>
>> speaking only for myself (and I don't think I particularly
>>  flurried), its a confusion in formal address and description, not in
>>  intimate family setting. When an Esrolian says to another 'I have to
>>  do this thing for my Grandmother', it remains ambiguous.
>
>Remember, Esrolians don't speak English.:)  Probably Grandmother (the
>title) is something like Hara-Grandmother or Hantra-Grandmother, or
>some other one syllable differentiation.

At 4:33 PM +0000 30/6/06, Jeff Richard wrote:
>Additionally, the term "matriarch", as normally defined, self-
>consciously implies "patriarch" as the norm.  It also for me has all
>sorts of irritating connotions to bad Women's Studies seminars back at
>The Evergree State College, along with crappy readings like "The
>Chalice and the Blade".

	 If the Esrolians indeed have separate words meaning
'matriarch' and 'grandmother', even if they sound similar, we should
translate them to the appropriate words.
	 On the other hand, I find myself quite convinced by Donald
Oddys example of the word father in English as used in reference to
Catholic priests that use of familial terms to indicate social
positions is quite plausible.
	 In other words, I would much rather assume that if we are
going to use the same term for grandmother and for clan matriarch,
its because the Esrolians overload the word too, not because we are
snooty about real world gender politics and such things.
	 And I have much reduced objection to the introduction of
ambiguity if we are conceptually reproducing Esrolian linguistic
ambiguity, rather than simply introducing ambiguity of our own.
	 Cheers
		 David

Quoting David Cake <dave@...>:


>  In other words, I would much rather assume that if we are
> going to use the same term for grandmother and for clan matriarch,
> its because the Esrolians overload the word too, not because we are
> snooty about real world gender politics and such things.

I deliberately chose to use the term Grandmother to define the
Esrolian social structure because it is the same word used for elder
women of one's bloodline.

========================
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
c/o Greg Stafford
1942 Shattuck AVe, #204
Berkeley, CA 94704 USA

Greg - given that IFWW is unique to the Heortlings (and of course
that includes the Heortlings of Tarsh, Holay, Aggar and Saird -
misleadingly called "Alakoringites" by the southern Heortlings of
Sartar and Heortland), what do we know about the adulthood
initiation rites of the other major Orlanthi cultural center -
Ralios?

I assume that in Ralios there are probably lots of different
adulthood initiation rites, since there were lots of different
groups in Ralios that became Orlanthi.  Some might follow the Bull
totem rites (the descendents of the Bemuri), others might follow the
Horse rites (descendents of the Galanni), and so on.  For that
matter, did any Heortling groups settle in Ralios in the First Age?

The religious rites of the Ralian Orlanthi, on the other hand, are
likely extremely similar to the Heortling religious rites and
indistinguishable from those rites even to most Heortlings.  Heck,
given that the Heortlings had to rely upon Ralian Orlanthi
godtalkers at least twice in their past, I reckon they are
effectively the same rites (with of course some local variations -
like substituting Kerofin and the Top of the World).

Any thoughts?

Jeff

YGWV

Quoting Jeff Richard <richaje@...>:
asks

> Greg - given that IFWW is unique to the Heortlings
Among humans, that is. Note that some elves, dwarves,  uz and Gold
Wheel Dancers also have a similiar experience.

> (and of course
> that includes the Heortlings of Tarsh, Holay, Aggar and Saird -
> misleadingly called "Alakoringites" by the southern Heortlings of
> Sartar and Heortland),

Misleading as it is, there is still some historical validity to the
term, insofar as the northern tribes were following him before the
Dragonkill.

> what do we know about the adulthood
> initiation rites of the other major Orlanthi cultural center -
> Ralios?

The initiation rites for adulthood would be the story of how they
survived the Darkness, or whatever key event marked their
identification as a clan (I can imagine that some of these events
would be in the Gods War periods, for instance.)

> I assume that in Ralios there are probably lots of different
> adulthood initiation rites, since there were lots of different

> groups in Ralios that became Orlanthi.
Yes.

> Some might follow the Bull
> totem rites (the descendents of the Bemuri),

Bemuri, eh? Yes, though in Fronela they are called the Tawari.

> others might follow the
> Horse rites (descendents of the Galanni), and so on.  For that
> matter, did any Heortling groups settle in Ralios in the First Age?

Yes, some did.
The Lightbringer misionaries set off in all directions. One group went
south of the Mislari mountains, bringing the faith to the people
there. I imagine that some of these Heortlings then wen on t other
lands, but probably with compatriots frlom the region they had just
converted.

It took over a century to get to Ralios, I think (at least to convert
people) and I imagine that the incidence of Heortlings was probably
pretty small by that time. Although, come to think of it, it is likely
that pocket of Heortlings settled in Wenelia too, and probably sent
some missionaries on.

> The religious rites of the Ralian Orlanthi, on the other hand, are
> likely extremely similar to the Heortling religious rites and
> indistinguishable from those rites even to most Heortlings.

I think so. There would be some drift over the centuries, but since
the "environmental conditions" of the gods did not change
significently, the rites are probably similiar too, save for the
inevitable local differences.


========================
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
c/o Greg Stafford
1942 Shattuck AVe, #204
Berkeley, CA 94704 USA

Quoting Jeff Richard <richaje@...>:

> given that the Heortlings had to rely upon Ralian Orlanthi
> godtalkers at least twice in their past,

Twice?
I presume this was:
1. Alakoring, rescuing the Traditionalists with his northern army; and
2. The Tarshites moving into the Pass after Dragonkill.

I'd like to poin tout that in both these dases the majority of the
people were not Ralians at all, but northern Heortling-derived peoples.

> I reckon they are
> effectively the same rites (with of course some local variations -
> like substituting Kerofin and the Top of the World).

Yes, pretty much so. Local variants too, of course...

========================
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
c/o Greg Stafford
1942 Shattuck AVe, #204
Berkeley, CA 94704 USA

> > (and of course
> > that includes the Heortlings of Tarsh, Holay, Aggar and Saird -
> > misleadingly called "Alakoringites" by the southern Heortlings of
> > Sartar and Heortland),
> Misleading as it is, there is still some historical validity to
the
> term, insofar as the northern tribes were following him before
the
> Dragonkill.

Sure - but I doubt the northern Heortlings call
themselves "Alakoringites".  I've always figured they call
themselves "Heortlings" (assuming they still practice the
traditional rites), and call the southerners "Hendrikings".

> The initiation rites for adulthood would be the story of how they
> survived the Darkness, or whatever key event marked their
> identification as a clan (I can imagine that some of these events
> would be in the Gods War periods, for instance.)

Given that the Ralians were largely hsunchen in the Darkness, most
of these rites are probably hsunchen in origin.

> > Some might follow the Bull
> > totem rites (the descendents of the Bemuri),
> Bemuri, eh? Yes, though in Fronela they are called the Tawari.

David Dunham and I have fond recollections of the Bemuri.:)

> The Lightbringer misionaries set off in all directions. One group
went
> south of the Mislari mountains, bringing the faith to the people
> there. I imagine that some of these Heortlings then wen on t
other
> lands, but probably with compatriots frlom the region they had
just
> converted.

Sure. I just figure there are probably even a few pockets of
Heortlings in Ralios.  In a sea of folk with largely hsunchen
initiation traditions.  Including some pretty weird ones I expect.
And there might even be some strange things dating from after the
EWF as well.

> > The religious rites of the Ralian Orlanthi, on the other hand,
are
> > likely extremely similar to the Heortling religious rites and
> > indistinguishable from those rites even to most Heortlings.
> I think so. There would be some drift over the centuries, but
since
> the "environmental conditions" of the gods did not change
> significently, the rites are probably similiar too, save for the
> inevitable local differences.

Yeah, that's my view as well.  Contrary to well-established fan
tradition (which I helped promote), I strongly doubt that there is
a "Humath" cult in Ralios that has replaced "Humakt".  I expect the
Ralians worship Humakt.

Jeff

> Twice?
> I presume this was:
> 1. Alakoring, rescuing the Traditionalists with his northern army;
and
> 2. The Tarshites moving into the Pass after Dragonkill.

Actually I was thinking:
1. Harmast and the Ralian Orlanthi, aiding Arkat.
2. Alakoring, rescuing the Traditionalists with his northern army.

I wasn't thinking about the Tarshites at all.:)

Jeff

Greg sez
>  > Greg - given that IFWW is unique to the Heortlings
>Among humans, that is. Note that some elves, dwarves,  uz and Gold
>Wheel Dancers also have a similiar experience.

and also
At 9:46 AM -0700 4/7/06, Greg Stafford wrote:
>  > Ie do Heortlings ever
>>  find themselves aiding trolls or elves in their experience of IFWW?
>
>Never. Absolutely never.
>The purpose of the IFFW is in the "I," in that it is a solitary experience.

	 It sounds as if there is a real phenomenon (of similar myths
in different racial mythologies) that could easily be a basis for a
God Learner conception of IFWW.
	 Interestingly, most of the human myths of IFWW that are in
COP are about Zzabur, which fits well with the idea that the
universal IFWW from COP is a God Learner construct, but not with the
idea that Heortlings are the only humans that experience it. But
then, we know the God Learners got plenty of stuff wrong - its likely
they are conflating two sets of related myths (one about a lone stand
against chaos, one about inter-species co-operation) into one, or
some such fundamental error, and ignoring all the cases that don't
fit.
	 Cheers
		 David

Not sure if this is the correct place for this, since it's a cross
between a rules question and a setting question.

I'm preparing for a HeroQuest campaign I'll potentially get to run in
the near future for a bunch of people who know nothing of Glorantha.
In order to give them a framework to go by when creating characters,
I'm working up all of the clan-specific material ahead of time. Now,
the clan I generated with the applet on the glorantha.com website has
a specialty of Magic, so I figure they have some unusual cults
worshipped in the clan. One of these cults turned out to be Argan
Argar, but I also wanted to have subcults of Orlanth and Ernalda
available, that weren't in Thunder Rebels or Storm Tribe.

I was looking through the options, when I came across the Household
Goddesses. I could definitely see a couple of my players seriously
considering characters devoted to one or two of these goddesses, but
not all of them are written up. Those writeups we've seen are:

* Kesta, Masters of Luck and Death, page 22.
* Mahome, Thunder Rebels, page 189.
* Jera, Thunder Rebels, page 195.
* Roitina, Thunder Rebels, page 202.

As far as I know, there have been no writeups for the following:

* Istena, who fills the water and wine skins.
* Sharla, who spins the wool into thread.
* Berlintha, who mends the clothing.
* Arnna, who holds the key to the treasure box.
* Beseta and Besanga, who bear the Goddess' burdens.

I seem to remember Arnna being mentioned as an aspect of Asrelia/Ty
Kora Tek, which would make her relatively easy to work up, but I'll
admit bafflement on the others, who appear in no myths I've found.
Does anybody have any idea what Affinities/Feats/Secrets they should
have? I'm especially unsure about Beseta and Besanga, who would seem
to be superfluous given the powers of Enferalda the Supporter.

Any contributions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!

Roland

YGWV

Quoting ishldgetoutmore <rmv1@...>:

> Not sure if this is the correct place for this, since it's a cross
> between a rules question and a setting question.

EVerything is welcome here.

> I was looking through the options, when I came across the Household
> Goddesses. I could definitely see a couple of my players seriously
> considering characters devoted to one or two of these goddesses, but

Sounds like an interesting bunch of players if they would be
interested in these entities!

> As far as I know, there have been no writeups for the following:
>
> * Istena, who fills the water and wine skins.
> * Sharla, who spins the wool into thread.
> * Berlintha, who mends the clothing.
> * Arnna, who holds the key to the treasure box.
> * Beseta and Besanga, who bear the Goddess' burdens.
>
> I seem to remember Arnna being mentioned as an aspect of Asrelia/Ty
> Kora Tek,

The association of Arnna with the treasure holder is the fact that TKT
and Asrelia are also. However, Arnna would be the one who holds
household goods safe, not the divine household though.

> which would make her relatively easy to work up, but I'll
> admit bafflement on the others, who appear in no myths I've found.

There aren't many, I would bet. I think that some of these arfe
mentioned in the myth of how Orlanth liberaed Ernalda from Yelm, and
these women help cart stuff out of the palace. The fact is these are
Ernalda's servants, and their myths are about serving, not much else.

> Does anybody have any idea what Affinities/Feats/Secrets they should
> have?

I don't want to disappoint, but these would mostly be pretty mundane
things that directly deal wiht thier household jobs. They are
specialized enough that they may have only one Affinity each, being
whatever they have in the list above. As for Feats, they'd be
specialization of those. Thus
Istena: Carry Water, Fix bucket, Don't Drip Wine, Find Clean Water.
Sharla: Card wool, spin distaff, repair loom, etc.
And so on.

> I'm especially unsure about Beseta and Besanga, who would seem
> to be superfluous given the powers of Enferalda the Supporter.

Enferalda helps Orlanth, these fine lasses help Ernalda.

> Any contributions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!

I'd just suggest that you let the players learn about these as they
go. If they actually want to be a worshipper of one of these then let
the players learn along with their characters. Slowly introduce the
fact that in HeroQuest THE PLAYERS can help design the magic system,
and encourage them to discover what their characters would want, find
useful or natural.

========================
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
c/o Greg Stafford
1942 Shattuck AVe, #204
Berkeley, CA 94704 USA

Hi

--- In HeroQuest-RPG@yahoogroups.com, Greg Stafford <Greg@...> wrote:

> I'd just suggest that you let the players learn about these as
they
> go. If they actually want to be a worshipper of one of these then
let
> the players learn along with their characters. Slowly introduce
the
> fact that in HeroQuest THE PLAYERS can help design the magic
system,
> and encourage them to discover what their characters would want,
find
> useful or natural.
>
> ========================
> Sincerely,
> Greg Stafford

Wow! Sage and very cool advice!

Best regards
Rob

> > Ie do Heortlings ever
> > find themselves aiding trolls or elves in their experience of IFWW?

> Never. Absolutely never.
> The purpose of the IFFW is in the "I," in that it is a solitary
> experience.

I think that there might be some confusion here between IFWW and the
Unity Battle here. The Unity Battle is not, in my understanding the WW
part of IF, but a seperate event where the Dragon Pass survivors work
together to defeat chaos and which leads, I suspect, to the Unity
Council. The Only Old One may be more influential than Heort in this
event.

IFWW = Heortling initiation
Unity Battle = survivors in Dragon Pass co-operate to destroy a chaos army

>>As far as I know, there have been no writeups for the following:

* Istena, who fills the water and wine skins.
* Sharla, who spins the wool into thread.
* Berlintha, who mends the clothing.
* Arnna, who holds the key to the treasure box.
* Beseta and Besanga, who bear the Goddess' burdens.<<

I expect you can treat most of these in the same way, as subcults,
just as Mahome is a subcult and give them an appropriate affinity for
their speciality

* Istena -Tanning (maybe?)
* Sharla - Spinning.
* Berlintha - Mending.
* Arnna - Storing
* Beseta and Besanga - Bearing

Then as Greg says let the heroes come up with the feats that those
affinities contain, and a secret if required.

In Red Cow
(http://iancooper.brinkster.net/glorantha/sartar/redcow/redcow.html)
one thing that came up significantly in play for married female
characters was the birth clan. Women have links both back to their
former clan, but also within their married clan -many of thier
sisters, cousins, nieces will have married into the clan as well. This
forms another social network. For example in Red Cow the married women
are mainly from the Frithan and Underwillow clans. In play this turned
into rivalries on numerous occassions when an unmarried sister or
cousin was proposed as suitable match for an eligible Red Cow man, or
a former birth-clan kinswoman ran for position on the Red Cow ring.
Play revealed a real possibility of rivalry based on former ties
between the women. Indeed one of the game's 'villains' Darna Longcoat
did little more than frustrate the marriage ambitions of one of the
heroes and arrange the marriage of another to a woman of her birth
clan. But at least one of the heroes now regards her as her primary
enemy as a result (she cares more about 'getting one over' on Darna
than running the Lunars out of Sartar).

The other thing that immediately springs to mind for us was the
importance of children to women who have political ambition. The clan
offers little support to those who are not 'committed' by having
children, so politically ambitious heroes who were 'newly married'
were keen to concieve so that they could gain the right to bash their
cooking pots at the moot. (There are of course the wanderlore rites,
which embrace childlessness (child-free?), but no one in our game
pursued that option).

YGWV

Quoting Ian Cooper <ian_hammond_cooper@...>:

> I think that there might be some confusion here between IFWW and the
> Unity Battle here.

Nice insight Ian. I think David Cake will chime in now, and say the GL
must have made this mistake too. Which is just fine by me, if it
explains my previous errors in understanding (Zzabur at IFWW indeed!).

> The Unity Battle is not, in my understanding the WW
> part of IF, but a seperate event where the Dragon Pass survivors work
> together to defeat chaos and which leads, I suspect, to the Unity
> Council.

Yes, all 100% correct.

> The Only Old One may be more influential than Heort in this
> event.

Most of everything I've written has been from the human perspective,
which naturally ends to put human at the center of everything. But in
fact, the trolls were by far the most significent part of the Unity
Battle. The others were "special accoutrements" by comparison.

This explains why Ezkankekko was the leader of Unity Council.


========================
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
c/o Greg Stafford
1942 Shattuck AVe, #204
Berkeley, CA 94704 USA

YGWV

Quoting Jeff Richard <richaje@...>:

> Sure - but I doubt the northern Heortlings call
> themselves "Alakoringites".  I've always figured they call
> themselves "Heortlings" (assuming they still practice the
> traditional rites), and call the southerners "Hendrikings".

That makes a lot of sense, expecially the southerners being called
Hendriki.  COULD BE so,.
But it could be just as likely that the northerners, having called
themselves the Alakoringi, as the "new victorious folk" sweep south
against the evil dragonsa; retained the name afterwards.

> Given that the Ralians were largely hsunchen in the Darkness, most
> of these rites are probably hsunchen in origin.

Of course.
But there is not a SINGLE way the hsunchen survived. They would differ, and be
1. a power of the critter, (thus the deer people survive by flight,
and by offering one of thmselves as sacrifice to save the others); and
2. somethig to do with also having a human power.

> Sure. I just figure there are probably even a few pockets of
> Heortlings in Ralios.  In a sea of folk with largely hsunchen
> initiation traditions.  Including some pretty weird ones I expect.
> And there might even be some strange things dating from after the
> EWF as well.

It is possible that pockets of Heortling socieites have survived in Ralios.
There are also probably non-Heortling, non-hsnchen groups as well.

> Yeah, that's my view as well.  Contrary to well-established fan
> tradition (which I helped promote), I strongly doubt that there is
> a "Humath" cult in Ralios that has replaced "Humakt".  I expect the
> Ralians worship Humakt.

Of course, since Humakt was an integral part of the Heortling pantheon
at the Dawn.

========================
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
c/o Greg Stafford
1942 Shattuck AVe, #204
Berkeley, CA 94704 USA

YGWV

Quoting Jeff Richard <richaje@...>:

>> Twice?
>> I presume this was:
>> 1. Alakoring, rescuing the Traditionalists with his northern army;
> and
>> 2. The Tarshites moving into the Pass after Dragonkill.
>
> Actually I was thinking:
> 1. Harmast and the Ralian Orlanthi, aiding Arkat.
> 2. Alakoring, rescuing the Traditionalists with his northern army.

I almost never think of the Orlanthi with Arkat as being Ralians,
although of course they were. But along with that army were large
groups of others fromthe west, including Seshnegi, etc.

Also, almost no one today considers the part of Harmast in Arkat's
invasion (though this may chane in my pov as I work on this more). It
is simply, Arkat's invasion.

========================
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
c/o Greg Stafford
1942 Shattuck AVe, #204
Berkeley, CA 94704 USA