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Thanks!

A face appeared in the pool.  It was a strong face with shimmery
tattoos on each cheek that seemed to move at odds with the ripples in
the pond.  The face had seen many years and there were many
wrinkles.  Long hair still lay on his shoulders but the brown was
almost completely defeated by the grey and the crown of his head was
bare of any hair.  The face scowled at the image reflected in the
pool.

Another face joined it there.  This face was still relatively unlined
but the head was almost entirely bare of hair.  Only her eyebrows and
lashes remained. Her scalp was scarred by an odd criss-cross pattern
but she was still very beautiful.  She smiled indulgently and
lovingly at the man's image in the pond.

"Old man he called me.  That pup."

"Roganvarth my love, you ARE an old man."  Saying this the woman lay
her hand caressingly on his shoulder.

The man leaned forward and now his broad shoulders, mighty chest and
thick arms could be seen.  His chest was bare and he still looked
powerful.  He ruefully ran one hand over his bald crown before
flexing his muscles.  The woman laughed at this posturing.

"Am I not as mighty a warrior as I ever was Rana?"

She shook her head sadly.

"No my love you are not.  Neither of us are what we once were.
Neither of us are what we were before Whitewall."

His eyes flickered to her despoiled scalp and he remembered the glory
that had once been her hair, her Riverlocks.  A selfless sadness
crossed his face and he hugged her close to him.  She fit easily into
his embrace.  He smiled down at her and she smiled back up at him.

"No regrets?" he asked.

A spark of anger touched her eyes so fleetingly anyone less familiar
with her face than he would have missed it.  She saw in her mind's
eye the children they would never have, the hearth they had never
warmed themselves around, friends dead and gone and causes lost.  She
saw the grandchildren they would never have and the people they would
never see again.  Last and least of all she saw her lost glory.  The
river of hair that had given her the long forgotten name of
Riverlocks. And then she looked up into the face that gazed adoringly
down at her.  She shook her head.

"No regrets my own breath.  How could I?"

He smiled broadly like a lad at her and then his foot reached forward
and flicked the pool setting it into motion.  When it had stilled
again they were gone.

Oliver

> How quickly do you think that's going to happen for the average
> clan?

Interesting question.  In our Seattle Farmers house campaign
involving the Colymar tribe, Lunar tribute is collected by the
Colymar on a tribal level prior to Starbrow's Rebellion (until the
Rebellion, the Colymar are among the Free Tribes).  After the
Rebellion, I think the Slave Tribes are assessed taxes on a clan by
clan - not by individual.  The Free Tribes are still assessed taxes
on a tribal basis.

> Then the
> Lunar tax collector is brought in to point out that if the taxes
> aren't paid he will have to make an example of a clan and do they
> really want it to be theirs?

I view the role of the tax collectors as informing the kings and
chiefs how much they owe and when it is due.  If insufficient taxes
are presented, the tax collectors can seek relief from the Governor-
General (and can recoup their losses from the sale of slaves).

> >> I think it's going to take many years before the gradual
> >> influx of missionaries, tax collectors and soldiers impinges
> >> noticeably on most ordinary clanspeople.

Although most folk won't be interacting with missionaries, tax
collectors or soldiers - the tax itself has a huge impact on
ordinary clanspeople.  If the Lunar tax comes out to about a cow a
person per year, how long can ordinary clansfolk keep coming up with
that surplus without drastically impacting their own wealth?

Jeff

In message <col883+g1nm@eGroups.com> "jeffrichard68" writes:

>> Then the
>> Lunar tax collector is brought in to point out that if the taxes
>> aren't paid he will have to make an example of a clan and do they
>> really want it to be theirs?
>
>I view the role of the tax collectors as informing the kings and
>chiefs how much they owe and when it is due.  If insufficient taxes
>are presented, the tax collectors can seek relief from the Governor-
>General (and can recoup their losses from the sale of slaves).

Basically I agree although I think there will also be an element of
persuasion involved - the chief is going to want to pass the blame
onto these foreigners rather than playing piggy in the middle. The
collectors aren't going to get relief from the Governer-General
unless they can show they've done what they can.

>> >> I think it's going to take many years before the gradual
>> >> influx of missionaries, tax collectors and soldiers impinges
>> >> noticeably on most ordinary clanspeople.
>
>Although most folk won't be interacting with missionaries, tax
>collectors or soldiers - the tax itself has a huge impact on
>ordinary clanspeople.  If the Lunar tax comes out to about a cow a
>person per year, how long can ordinary clansfolk keep coming up with
>that surplus without drastically impacting their own wealth?

A cow per person per year sounds rather high. Easy enough for a thane
but tough for a carl and pretty near impossible for a cottar. I would
think an amount equal to half a cow per adult is going to be closer
although since the tax collectors won't be counting people it'll
vary based on how they assess the tribe or clan and it'll be up to
the chief who pays the tax within the clan. No doubt something else
that gets argued about at length.

In the first few years I think there's going to be widespread tax
evasion as the tribes deal with ignorant collectors. Over time the
dodges are spotted and collectors start visiting clans to check the
figures. It's that increase in taxes actually collected that gets
the clansfolk upset. Of course after Starbrow's Rebellion the
collectors will concentrate on the slave clans both as punishment
and on the grounds that they are most likely to be evading taxes.
When the Fimblewinter hits all this tax collection goes out the
window - there just won't be the cows to pay the taxes. Some clans
and tribes will manage to pay with a struggle but most will default.

--
Donald Oddy
http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/

donald@... wrote:
> A cow per person per year sounds rather high. Easy enough for a thane
> but tough for a carl and pretty near impossible for a cottar. I would
> think an amount equal to half a cow per adult is going to be closer
> although since the tax collectors won't be counting people it'll
> vary based on how they assess the tribe or clan and it'll be up to
> the chief who pays the tax within the clan.

Cows of an ancient time have calves about 40% of the time, and cattle
have about 7 years of useful breeding in them before they're too old.
(Numbers came out of "Cattle Lords and Clansmen" by Nerys Patterson -
thanks to John Hughes for the heads up)

If we assume the above numbers for Dragon Pass (and for the moment that
none of them get stolen or die of disease or misadventure) then a clan
of 1000 people needs to have around 16000 cows to be able to deliver 1
cow per person in tax sustainably.
(16000 cows ~6400 calves per year (half male).
1/7 die of old age = 2285 cows die
= 915 cows increase per year.) (and 5400 dead beasts to devour over the
year)

If some die or get stolen it's even worse.

My players clan (about 500 people) has slightly more than 800 cattle who
have ~320 calves (half of whom are male) and lose about 115 to old age,
leaving a net increase of ~45 per year (and ~275 dead beasts to eat over
a year).
Subtract from that losses to predators, cattle raiding and gifts to
neighbours and it's more like a zero-sum game.

The clan also has about 9 oxen per Carl family (8 Ox in a team, plus one
in training) and there'll be a bull or three floating around the clan
somewhere. The Oxen will be taken from the males, but at a replacement
rate, so it won't really affect the number of dead beasts. I'm figuring
around 150 oxen in my players clan.

Most of the beef that people eat will be either old cows or young males.

Requiring a half a cow per person would make the clan non-sustainable. I
think that something like 2 cows per stead (about 1 per 25 people in my
game) would be tough, but almost sustainable.

If it includes payment in kind, throwing in sheep, swine and
manufactured goods, you could probably double that payment and still not
be absolutely broke, but if you have a bad year, things will be very tough.

Stephen




--
Stephen Rennell  steve@...
Wellington, New Zealand
GPG fingerprint -
CD0F 78C6 1AAE 8726 803A F1D0 F123 8486 062F 0317

> > A cow per person per year sounds rather high. Easy enough for a
thane
> > but tough for a carl and pretty near impossible for a cottar. I
would
> > think an amount equal to half a cow per adult is going to be
closer
> > although since the tax collectors won't be counting people it'll
> > vary based on how they assess the tribe or clan and it'll be up
to
> > the chief who pays the tax within the clan.

Yep.  However, I do think that the tribes that rebelled during
Starbrow's Rebellion got hit with a tribute that averaged about a
cow per person.  That's the high water mark and the tribal and clan
assessment eventually got to more sustainable levels (where the
Lunars want it to be sustainable).  But IMO the Lunar tax is
deliberately too high - it forces the tribes and the clans to bend
to the Lunar will or die.

> (Numbers came out of "Cattle Lords and Clansmen" by Nerys
Patterson -
> thanks to John Hughes for the heads up)

I use Patterson as well.:)

> My players clan (about 500 people) has slightly more than 800
cattle who
> have ~320 calves (half of whom are male) and lose about 115 to old
age,
> leaving a net increase of ~45 per year (and ~275 dead beasts to
eat over
> a year).
> Subtract from that losses to predators, cattle raiding and gifts
to
> neighbours and it's more like a zero-sum game.

Absolutely right.

> Requiring a half a cow per person would make the clan non-
sustainable. I
> think that something like 2 cows per stead (about 1 per 25 people
in my
> game) would be tough, but almost sustainable.

But the post-Rebellion Lunar tax is not supposed to be sustainable.
Elect a pro-Lunar king or chief and your taxes go down.  Build a
shrine to the Seven Mothers and your taxes go down.  Join the Seven
Mothers and you don't get taxed.  Stay a traditionalist, anti-Lunar
Orlanthi and you will slowly die.

> If it includes payment in kind, throwing in sheep, swine and
> manufactured goods, you could probably double that payment and
still not
> be absolutely broke, but if you have a bad year, things will be
very tough.

I think that most of the tax is paid in kind - wool, metal, sheep,
swine - and not in cattle.  Still, the only way to stay a
traditionalist clan is to raid your neighbors.  Or rebel.

Jeff

> In the first few years I think there's going to be widespread tax
> evasion as the tribes deal with ignorant collectors. Over time the
> dodges are spotted and collectors start visiting clans to check the
> figures. It's that increase in taxes actually collected that gets
> the clansfolk upset. Of course after Starbrow's Rebellion the
> collectors will concentrate on the slave clans both as punishment
> and on the grounds that they are most likely to be evading taxes.

I don't think there is actually that much evasion.  I think tax
collection works like this.  Governor-General Fazzur says he needs
about 8000 lunars from the Colymar.  Tax Farmer Igarni gives Fazzur
8000 lunars in specie for the right to impose and collect a tax on
the Colymar.  Ignarni tells Queen Leika that a tax of 12,500 lunars
is imposed on the tribe and she better cough it up by Tax Day or the
wrath of the Lunar Army will be brought upon their heads.  Leika has
four choices:
(1) Refuse to pay the tax and run the risk of being squashed by the
Army (not a good choice after Starbrow's Rebellion);
(2) Force the clans to come up with the tax and run the risk of
being overthrown by the clans;
(3) Allow Lunar missionaries into tribal lands, become Lunar
mercenaries, or otherwise suck up to the Lunars, and ask Fazzur to
reduce the assessment; or
(4) Join the Seven Mothers and get the tax reduced.

None of these choices are all that great from the Sartarite
perspective.  The Lunars can live with any of these choices (until
Fimbulwinter when nearly everyone chooses (1)).

Jeff

Ooh! Nice!

(And those of us on the WhiteWall list will have recognised the
characters, and know how Rana lost her hair).

In message <41AE6A8E.6060003@...> Stephen Rennell writes:

>My players clan (about 500 people) has slightly more than 800 cattle who
>have ~320 calves (half of whom are male) and lose about 115 to old age,
>leaving a net increase of ~45 per year (and ~275 dead beasts to eat over
>a year).
>Subtract from that losses to predators, cattle raiding and gifts to
>neighbours and it's more like a zero-sum game.
>
>The clan also has about 9 oxen per Carl family (8 Ox in a team, plus one
>in training) and there'll be a bull or three floating around the clan
>somewhere. The Oxen will be taken from the males, but at a replacement
>rate, so it won't really affect the number of dead beasts. I'm figuring
>around 150 oxen in my players clan.
>
>Most of the beef that people eat will be either old cows or young males.
>
>Requiring a half a cow per person would make the clan non-sustainable. I
>think that something like 2 cows per stead (about 1 per 25 people in my
>game) would be tough, but almost sustainable.
>
>If it includes payment in kind, throwing in sheep, swine and
>manufactured goods, you could probably double that payment and still not
>be absolutely broke, but if you have a bad year, things will be very tough.

Yes, I did assume that it was cow equivelents, particularly because I
believe the Lunars demand payment in silver (which gives them an
apportunity to make extra profit from accepting alternatives).

My view is that your clan is rather poor with only 17 carls and thanes
in 500 people so I would expect the high proportion of cotters to make
up some of the difference with alternatives. A richer clan could easily
have twice the herd of cattle and twice the carls so the 250 adults
would be paying 125 cows tax out of the 450 beasts they would otherwise
have eaten themselves. Certainly sustainable even if the tribe already
has a similar level of tax to support the tribal chief etc.

Bad years are a separate issue, when the taxes are paid to the tribe
it will be routine for the tribal chief to waive some of the tax for
the year. The Lunars won't do this, they expect paying whatever. If
the clansfolk are really starving they can always get fed at the Teelo
Norri poorhouse....

--
Donald Oddy
http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/

Does anyone have any keywords/descriptions for Annilla, Quatanara,
Mahaquata.
Not entirely sure of their individual spheres of influence,
especially the later two, other than they're all apparently drawn
from aspects of Verithurusa.
I put together a 'version' of Annilla based on the description in RQ
Troll Gods - but its a bit God Learner in its look and feel.

Paul

In message <com07f+btfr@eGroups.com> "jeffrichard68" writes:
>
>> In the first few years I think there's going to be widespread tax
>> evasion as the tribes deal with ignorant collectors. Over time the
>> dodges are spotted and collectors start visiting clans to check the
>> figures. It's that increase in taxes actually collected that gets
>> the clansfolk upset. Of course after Starbrow's Rebellion the
>> collectors will concentrate on the slave clans both as punishment
>> and on the grounds that they are most likely to be evading taxes.
>
>I don't think there is actually that much evasion.  I think tax
>collection works like this.  Governor-General Fazzur says he needs
>about 8000 lunars from the Colymar.  Tax Farmer Igarni gives Fazzur
>8000 lunars in specie for the right to impose and collect a tax on
>the Colymar.  Ignarni tells Queen Leika that a tax of 12,500 lunars
>is imposed on the tribe and she better cough it up by Tax Day or the
>wrath of the Lunar Army will be brought upon their heads.  Leika has
>four choices:
>(1) Refuse to pay the tax and run the risk of being squashed by the
>Army (not a good choice after Starbrow's Rebellion);
>(2) Force the clans to come up with the tax and run the risk of
>being overthrown by the clans;
>(3) Allow Lunar missionaries into tribal lands, become Lunar
>mercenaries, or otherwise suck up to the Lunars, and ask Fazzur to
>reduce the assessment; or
>(4) Join the Seven Mothers and get the tax reduced.
>
>None of these choices are all that great from the Sartarite
>perspective.  The Lunars can live with any of these choices (until
>Fimbulwinter when nearly everyone chooses (1)).

I can well imagine this is Fazzur's response to Starbrow's Rebellion,
an unsustainable tax to punish the rebels and bring them into line.
However in 1613 he knows how much tax they have paid in the past and
probably has a pretty good idea of what can be afforded.

In the context of taxation during the occupation as a whole we're
starting in 1602 where the Lunars have no idea what the tribes and
clans can afford. They will probably import the system used in Tarsh
and make assessments based on what they can find out quickly. There
may be some tribes which are truthful in what they tell the assessors
but I'm sure the majority aren't. Then over the next decade they'll
get better and better knowledge and actual taxes paid will rise as
they find something that they weren't told about. Certainly the more
in favour a clan or tribe is with the Lunars the less that'll happen
and the more concessions will be granted but overall the tax take
will rise.

The same thing happens after 1613 although there will be an initial
fall in taxes on those tribes which co-operate. So the 12,500 lunars
demanded from the Colymar in 1613 will be about thrice what they
were paying in 1612 and assuming suitable co-operation will fall back
to 5-6,000 by 1615. It will then start to climb again, probably by
just a few hundred each year and those increases will be felt by all
tribes.

--
Donald Oddy
http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/

--- In HeroQuest-RPG@yahoogroups.com, "Jane Williams"
<janewilliams20@y...> wrote:
> Ooh! Nice!
>
Thanks Jane.

Oliver

> I can well imagine this is Fazzur's response to Starbrow's
Rebellion,
> an unsustainable tax to punish the rebels and bring them into line.
> However in 1613 he knows how much tax they have paid in the past
and
> probably has a pretty good idea of what can be afforded.

He's also a Tarshite and has a better idea about how things work in
the hills of Dragon Pass.

> In the context of taxation during the occupation as a whole we're
> starting in 1602 where the Lunars have no idea what the tribes and
> clans can afford. They will probably import the system used in
Tarsh
> and make assessments based on what they can find out quickly.

I disagree somewhat.  Once the Emperor and his coterie leave Sartar
and return to the Heartlands, Euglyptus and his retainers are left
in charge of Sartar (given the immediate presence of the Emperor -
or at least his proxy, I think that Euglyptus was appointed by the
Emperor and not the Provincial Overseer).  Euglyptus needs somewhere
around 20,000 lunars a year to maintain the Army of Occupation in
Sartar.  He can probably get about 5,000 to 10,000 lunars a year
from the Empire - the rest he needs to collect locally.  He decides
to impose a tax of between 20,000 and 25,000 lunars a year on the
tribes and pocket the difference.

As a good Dara Happan, Euglyptus simply determines how much he needs
(with a target surplus of about 8,000 lunars to 15,000 lunars a
year - a pittance, but at least it compensates him for his time) and
makes his decree.

>There
> may be some tribes which are truthful in what they tell the
>assessors
> but I'm sure the majority aren't.

No assessment of property is needed.  This isn't a rate based "tax",
this is an annual fee imposed on the tribes to subsidize the Lunar
Occupation.

>Then over the next decade they'll
> get better and better knowledge and actual taxes paid will rise as
> they find something that they weren't told about. Certainly the
more
> in favour a clan or tribe is with the Lunars the less that'll
happen
> and the more concessions will be granted but overall the tax take
> will rise.

I think this is a Fazzur development.  I think the good general has
a better idea how to squeeze the Orlanthi of Sartar to further
Tarshite (and his own) ambitions.

> The same thing happens after 1613 although there will be an initial
> fall in taxes on those tribes which co-operate. So the 12,500
lunars
> demanded from the Colymar in 1613 will be about thrice what they
> were paying in 1612 and assuming suitable co-operation will fall
back
> to 5-6,000 by 1615. It will then start to climb again, probably by
> just a few hundred each year and those increases will be felt by
all
> tribes.

Fully agree here.

Jeff

--- In HeroQuest-RPG@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <bakerpaul442@a...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any keywords/descriptions for Annilla, Quatanara,
> Mahaquata.

This came up four years ago: here are a couple of the responses.

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 3
    Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:39:23 EST
    From: kmnellist@...
Subject: Re: Blue Moon

A player wants his character to be a Blue Moon cultist. I have made up
a brief magic keyword and the following affinities and feats:

Affinities:
>Secrecy (Secret Truths, Obscure Fact, Conceal Truth, Conceal Self)
>Otherworld (Identify Runic Power, Bash Spirit, Defend Against Magic)
>Movement  (Blue Streak, Move Unseen, Invisible Path)

I wanted to see if there was any opinion on these, the Otherworld ones
are nicked from Lunar cults. After I gave him this list it occured to
me that it should have "Command Selene Daimon" but I think this might
be used to "Command" other Canadian singers with only a small improv
modifier. Is Celine Dion aware of her Lunar Elemental status?

I also need a good idea for a cult secret -  a cult secret for a cult
whose main objective is secrecy. So far I am able to claim that no one
knows what the secret is.

Keith N

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
    Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 11:20:40 +1300
    From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph@...>
Subject: Re: Blue Moon

At 15:39 5/12/00 -0500, you wrote:

>Affinities:
> >Secrecy (Secret Truths, Obscure Fact, Conceal Truth, Conceal Self)
> >Otherworld (Identify Runic Power, Bash Spirit, Defend Against Magic)
> >Movement  (Blue Streak, Move Unseen, Invisible Path)

Summary of my posting on a similar question on the Glorantha Digest
(although I was adapting in part from Jeff Erwin's writeup).  Feel
free to adapt, warp, mutate or polymorph in any way you see fit.

Mystify (Leave no footprint, Erase Memory, Alter Writings, Lurk
Unseen, Hide Item)

Tides (Mesmerize, Command Tides, Levitate, Ebb Vitality, Refreshing Surge)

Blue Doom (Sap Life, Summon Selene, Bolt out of the Blue, Shocking
Revelation, Frigid Glare).

Flotsam of Secrets: Character learns a secret. The type of secret
learned is dependant on what he trawls it from.  If he uses it
generally, then a random secret is known. If he uses it against a
person, then a secret about that person becomes known. If he uses it
on Annilla, then he receives a vision of what she wants done. None of
these secrets need make any sense.

Whenever an assassin dies, his colleagues systematically eradicate any
evidence or memories of the deceased. By making his existence a
forgotten secret, the soul becomes one of Annilla's hordes of lost,
forgotten and unknowable secrets.

>I wanted to see if there was any opinion on these, the Otherworld ones
>are nicked from Lunar cults.

And inappropriate IMO for the cult has nothing to assassinate with.

--Peter Metcalfe

Hi Guys,

I answer to this old email because I have a question for you.
I would like know if you have informations about the action inside
the cradle after it entrance on the sea.

Garrath meets harrek but how they become friends ?
What is the tour of garrath and harrek after that ? Is there
somewhere more details than in King of Sartar ?

Thank you for your answer.

Flavien

> Yes, Garrath is an Argrath.
> Yes, he's the guy who takes part in the Cradle (no, he doesn't save
it, some
> group of PCs or other does that if your campaign plays through it).

> Therefore, he's also the guy who meets Harrek, sails around with
him, and
> eventually lands in Esrolia to join in the battles Broyan is having
down
> there.

Paul:

>Does anyone have any keywords/descriptions for Annilla, Quatanara,
>Mahaquata.

Annilla was described in the Four Scrolls of Revelation as an
Animist Cult which provided Blue Streak Spirits, Dehori, Bat
Spirits and Selenes.  It's basically written from the Uz PoV
with the Old Uz of the Mountains - who may or may not be
the same as the Emperor's Cousin.

I personally think the Lunars have a divine cult to Annilla which
is more regimented for the Occult security requirements of the
Lunar Empire.  As well as assassination, there's also Erik
Seurin's suggestion that they function as the Men in Blue who
wipe people's memories of anything that goes horrendously
bad as a result of the Lunar Way.  Nick's already posted my
suggested feats.

Mahaquata and Quatanara are the same cult worshipped by the
Rinliddi and the Blue Moon Trolls (the Rinliddi call her Mahaquata
while the Trolls call her Quatanara).  Although associated with the
Blue Moon, it's really a Death Bat cult.  Given that the cult of
the Crimson Bat is a lunarized version of this - and the Crimson
Bat is the Lunarized Avatar of Quatanara - you can't go wrong than
modelling the Death Bat cult on the cult of the Crimson Bat (Rory
gave a hero wars writeup in Moon Rites).

The affinities would then be:  _Emulate Bat_ (the feats giving cultists
bat ears for seeing in the dark and bat wings for flapping around)

>Not entirely sure of their individual spheres of influence,
>especially the later two, other than they're all apparently drawn
>from aspects of Verithurusa.

No, they are not.  The Blue Moons of the Goddess's Cycle are
Lesilla and Orogeria.  Moreover there is only a faint connection
between these goddesses and Annilla.

--Peter Metcalfe

   ----------


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Flavien:

>Garrath meets harrek but how they become friends ?

In the Cradle adventure, Garreth was known by the adventurers
to have spent time with the Wolf Pirates at the start of the
campaign.  So Garreth knew Harrek before the Cradle Adventure.

>What is the tour of garrath and harrek after that ?

The map in King of Sartar p17 is our best knowledge but that
is flawed.  The Iron City is described as being in Jrustela yet
our best knowledge places it within the Whirlpool.  We know
Harrek survives but we don't know what happens to Garreth.
For example, Garreth could have died on the tour and been
replaced by somebody else.  That Harreksaga speaks of
Argrath doing such and such a thing is not conclusive as the
person could have quite easily been an Arkati (from whence
the name Argrath came from).

>Is there
>somewhere more details than in King of Sartar ?

Don't know.

--Peter Metcalfe

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Are there any stories and/or myths which feature both Lanbril and
Mostal?

I am wanting to make up a incident where Lanbril steals something from
Mostal's workshop and conceals it far away in such a manner that
Mostal never recovers it (either because he is killed before he gets
around to it or because he was already dead when the theft took place)
and I am wanting to check that a) such a scenario is feasible and
b)I don't (unknowingly) contradict any already published material.

Thanks,

  - John

At 10:56 AM 12/3/04 +0000, you wrote:

>Are there any stories and/or myths which feature both Lanbril and
>Mostal?

None published.  There are many incidents in which human gods
and heroes have stolen secrets from the Mostali - Iron being the
best-known.  Perhaps the thieves were all Lanbril?

>I am wanting to make up a incident where Lanbril steals something from
>Mostal's workshop and conceals it far away in such a manner that
>Mostal never recovers it (either because he is killed before he gets
>around to it or because he was already dead when the theft took place)

Making it to the surface world is a good way of ensuring that the Mostali
will never recover it.  There's no need to postulate that he was dead at
the time because humans can't tell the difference between Mostal, the
Octamony of Minerals or Nida in their mythology.

>and I am wanting to check that a) such a scenario is feasible and
>b)I don't (unknowingly) contradict any already published material.

Go for it and don't be afraid.

--Peter Metcalfe


--Peter Metcalfe

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Greetings and Salutations
2004-12-03-1230.

Hi All,
The Ring of HeroQuest Narrators presents the following scenarios at Dragonmeet
2004 on 4th December 2004.
We are a team of HeroQuest Narrators dedicated to demoing the game to new
players and helping Narrators (Games Masters/Referees) new and old to design
adventures in the world of Glorantha Overall our aim is to get people who are
interested in playing HeroQuest, actually playing, not just talking about it.
For more information on the RHQN goto:

http://www.rhqn.com

For more information on Greg Stafford's Glorantha goto:

http://www.glorantha.com

For more info on Dragonmeet 2004 goto:

http://www.dragonmeet.com

+

Saturday morning 10:30-14:30
'The Dark Heart of the Dragon Lands' by Darran Sims narrated by Darran Sims.
HeroQuest adventure for up to 7 players.
Age 12+. Newcomers Welcome. Maturity Preferred.

Six years ago the Tarnda clan was abruptly attacked and obliterated by the
ferocious Dragonewts for reasons unknown.  The only known survivors were the
clansmen that weren't there at the time.
They have occupied the Tarnda Tula since, fiercely guarding their new
acquisition but haven't advanced out into anyone else's territory nor has anyone
given any concern to their new neighbours for fear of the same happening to
them.
Yet now there are reports that the Dragonewts have packed up and left, returning
back to their city.  A band of explorers and warriors have been gathered to
investigate the deserted villages and to try to discover why the Dragonewts have
suddenly left, why they attacked and held this land, and if there is anyone or
anything left.
However the main question at the back of everyone's head is
'Will the Dragonewts return?'

+

Saturday afternoon 14:30-18:30
'Into the Trees' by Darran Sims narrated by Darran Sims.
A HeroQuest adventure for 7 players.
Age 12+. Newcomers Welcome. Maturity Preferred.

"The Lunars have encroached upon the territory of an allied clan, taking over an
abandoned fort southeast of the clan's main settlement of Talask.  Two Maran
Gori priestesses are missing and are presumed captured by the enemy.  They most
be recovered at any cost and the Imperials forced to pay!
However trees have sprouted and suddenly grown in the village, they are even
growing though the buildings.
Is this some Lunar trickery or is it something more sinister coming from the
dark, dark forest?"

+

Saturday morning 10:30-14:30
'Black Ziggurat' by Newt Newport narrated by Robert Davis.
A HeroQuest adventure for 6 players.
Age 12+. Newcomers Welcome. Maturity Preferred.

The Round Mountain Gazzam League has received no word -- and no profit -- from
the remote town of Harlern for over a season. A team of troubleshooters must
investigate.

These games are intended to introduce HeroQuest and its mythic setting,
Glorantha. No experience with either is required. Characters will be provided.

Cheers,
DARRAN SIMS
-------------------------------
Go to Continuum! NOW!!!
http://www.continuum.uk.net
For the Yahoo Group goto:
continuum2004-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even Death may die."
- H.P.Lovecraft

In message <conipc+k7q3@eGroups.com> "jeffrichard68" writes:

>I disagree somewhat.  Once the Emperor and his coterie leave Sartar
>and return to the Heartlands, Euglyptus and his retainers are left
>in charge of Sartar (given the immediate presence of the Emperor -
>or at least his proxy, I think that Euglyptus was appointed by the
>Emperor and not the Provincial Overseer).  Euglyptus needs somewhere
>around 20,000 lunars a year to maintain the Army of Occupation in
>Sartar.  He can probably get about 5,000 to 10,000 lunars a year
>from the Empire - the rest he needs to collect locally.  He decides
>to impose a tax of between 20,000 and 25,000 lunars a year on the
>tribes and pocket the difference.
>
>As a good Dara Happan, Euglyptus simply determines how much he needs
>(with a target surplus of about 8,000 lunars to 15,000 lunars a
>year - a pittance, but at least it compensates him for his time) and
>makes his decree.

True as far as it goes but someone has to decide how much each tribe
pays. I'm sure there's a whole department in the Lunar administration
that does nothing else. And whatever basis they decide to use (number
of people, number of cows, land area, etc) will follow the path I've
outlined. Euglyptus won't complain if more tax is collected than he
decreed, he'll just pocket the extra. He'll probably find there is
pressure from the Empire to reduce their contribution as well.

There's an Imperial bureaucracy which needs to justify its existance
here and justify it they will.

--
Donald Oddy
http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/

> >As a good Dara Happan, Euglyptus simply determines how much he
needs
> >(with a target surplus of about 8,000 lunars to 15,000 lunars a
> >year - a pittance, but at least it compensates him for his time)
and
> >makes his decree.
>
> True as far as it goes but someone has to decide how much each
tribe
> pays. I'm sure there's a whole department in the Lunar
administration
> that does nothing else.

I disagree.  For example, Roman censors found that accurate census
taking in their provinces was a difficult task at best. To ease the
strain, taxes were assessed as a tithe on entire communities rather
than on individuals. Tax assessments in these communities fell under
the jurisdiction of Provincial governors and various local
magistrates.

The Lunar provinces have nothing that even remotely compares to even
a local county assessor's office.  Euglytpus probably has a small
staff that handles the logistics of the Army of Occupation -
probably just an extension of his personal household.  They estimate
what Euglyptus needs and apportion that assessment between the
tribes based on intelligence data like that of the Good Rat in KoS.
As the Occupation continues, the intelligence gets better and the
process of apportionment gets easier to administer.

I think that the tax collectors pay Euglyptus in advance of actually
collecting the taxes.  These payments were, in effect, loans to the
Governor-General and he is required to pay interest back to the tax
collectors. As an offset, the tax collectors have the individual
responsibility of converting properties and goods collected into
coinage, alleviating this hardship from the treasury. In the end,
the collectors would keep anything in excess of what they bid plus
the interest due from the treasury; with the risk being that they
might not collect as much as they originally bid.

The collection of taxes and the conversion of properties into specie
is presumably handled by leagues and associations (and is probably
given to whatever league is affiliated with the Governor-General).
Presumably the Etyries cult is very tightly linked into the process.

> Euglyptus won't complain if more tax is collected than he
> decreed, he'll just pocket the extra.

I doubt Euglyptus gets the chance.  Any extra is pocketed by the
collectors.  Euglyptus needs to get his extra up front.

Jeff

Peter

>The map in King of Sartar p17 is our best knowledge but that
>is flawed.  The Iron City is described as being in Jrustela yet
>our best knowledge places it within the Whirlpool.

I think you're being too literal here. Iron City is explicitly set in
Jrustela [KoS.21]. I suspect the saga refers to Crandess, which
trades iron.

I'm not aware of any other source for the voyage of Garrath and
Harrek. Missing Lands p.65 mentions Harrek's abrupt departure from
Banamba to help Argrath in Dragon Pass. This suggests he's helping
Garrath, but he could as easily be leaving to avenge his friend's
death.
--

David Dunham
Glorantha/HQ/RQ page: http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha.html
Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

As some of you may be aware I'm trying to write a HQ scenario set in
an area where the territories of three tribes meet. I've been looking
through the Dragon Pass book and the most promising location I can
come up with is the Tantrell Hills.

My criteria are that it should be:

A) Surrounded by three tribes: The book says "Dundealos, Kheldon, and
Sambari" and if I set my scenarion before 1618 the Dundealos will
still be in existance.

B) Hilly: "rugged hills" - even better.  ;-)

C) Out of the way or relatively deserted: "wildland" sounds promising.

D) Not too difficult to introduce characters from non-Heortling
backgrounds should anyone wish to play one: This could be trickey but
the Tantrell Hills are not too far from Boldhome, the Swenstown-
Wilmskirk road, the Lunar fort at (and patrols from) Jaldonkill, and
Prax. So that ought to give me a fair amount of wiggle room.

My two questions to all you Sartarphiles out there are:

1) Is this a suitable region for setting a scenario aimed at (and run
by) people with no previous experiance of HQ nor with the minutiae of
Sartar's politics or tribal dispositions?

2) Is there anywhere else which would also meet my criteria?

Thanks,

  - John

> As some of you may be aware I'm trying to write a HQ scenario
> set in an area where the territories of three tribes meet.
> I've been looking through the Dragon Pass book and the most
> promising location I can come up with is the Tantrell Hills.

> A) Surrounded by three tribes: The book says "Dundealos,
> Kheldon, and Sambari" and if I set my scenarion before 1618
> the Dundealos will still be in existance.

> 1) Is this a suitable region for setting a scenario aimed at (and run
> by) people with no previous experiance of HQ nor with the
> minutiae of Sartar's politics or tribal dispositions?

Depends on whether you see existing material as interesting background
to add to your story, or a nuisance getting in the way of your
creativity. (No, I'm not saying either view is good or bad).

The Dundealos, as you know, are due to have some serious problems coming
up in 1618. Not much documented about them that I know of, officially or
unofficially. Google suggests that Jon Smithers did some work on them,
but the link seems to be dead.

The Kheldon are
a) Kallyr's tribe, with all the politics that involves
b) the lot who got saddled with a throw-away line about not having
Movement powers any more, which is potentially quite difficult to
handle. (There are ways round it, but it does give you decisions to make
before you start).

Various people have done partial lists of Kheldon clans, and partial
maps of where they are, but AFAIK no-one's so far done anything coherent
and complete. (Yes, it's on my to-do list.)

The Sambari AFAIK have very little official material about them (BA and
DP is about it), but there's  a lot of unofficial background on them on
Benedict Adamson's site

http://www.badamson.nildram.co.uk/Glorantha/community/Sambari/

which you might well want to borrow. I see among other things that "The
Dundealos tribe was a traditional enemy of the Sambari Tribe"

And here's another version:
http://www.jim-mclaughlin.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Sambari%20Tribe.htm

No doubt there's more out there, but that should give you a start.

> My criteria are that it should be:
>
> A) Surrounded by three tribes:

> 2) Is there anywhere else which would also meet my criteria?

It occurs to me that it might add interest if these clans are *now* in
three different tribes, but only as a result of having been forced to
change tribe by the Lunars. Quite a lot of this happened shortly after
1613. Working out what location would be suitable would take a bit of
research, but might be worth a look.

--- In HeroQuest-RPG@yahoogroups.com, "yuskim1" <yuskim1@y...> wrote:
>
>
> A) Surrounded by three tribes: >
> B) Hilly: "rugged hills" - even better.  ;-)
>
> C) Out of the way or relatively deserted: "wildland" sounds
promising.
>
> D) Not too difficult to introduce characters from non-Heortling
> backgrounds should anyone wish to play one:

>
> 2) Is there anywhere else which would also meet my criteria?
>

Richberry Vale around Kjartan's Pool might work as well.  Three
tribes share it, it is poorly known and little settled.  The pool is
mostly a body of essential water, so westerners/aeolians might
visit.  Upstream along the Stream is a spring of healing water
(defined in MoLaD).  The reason that it is known as "Richberry" is
not defined.  There is a EWF ruin (supposedly) in the pool.  For some
reason everyone forgets the pool exists.

So you could really define what you want in that vale, and have good
excuse to introduce non-heortlings.

It isn't hilly, but surrounded by hills, and the nature of the vale
makes tribes and clans widely seperated.

Just another idea for you.

--Bryan

> > A) Surrounded by three tribes: >
> > B) Hilly: "rugged hills" - even better.  ;-)
> >
> > C) Out of the way or relatively deserted: "wildland" sounds
> promising.
> >
> > D) Not too difficult to introduce characters from non-Heortling
> > backgrounds should anyone wish to play one:
>
> >
> > 2) Is there anywhere else which would also meet my criteria?
> >

Other options include the Tres or Bachad tribes in the Far Place or
the Malani tribe (surrounded by the Colymar and Cinsina tribes).
Part of this depends on what non-Heortlings you plan to bring in.

Jeff

In message <coqk3o+mph0@eGroups.com> "jeffrichard68" writes:

>I disagree.  For example, Roman censors found that accurate census
>taking in their provinces was a difficult task at best. To ease the
>strain, taxes were assessed as a tithe on entire communities rather
>than on individuals. Tax assessments in these communities fell under
>the jurisdiction of Provincial governors and various local
>magistrates.
>
>The Lunar provinces have nothing that even remotely compares to even
>a local county assessor's office.  Euglytpus probably has a small
>staff that handles the logistics of the Army of Occupation -
>probably just an extension of his personal household.  They estimate
>what Euglyptus needs and apportion that assessment between the
>tribes based on intelligence data like that of the Good Rat in KoS.
>As the Occupation continues, the intelligence gets better and the
>process of apportionment gets easier to administer.
>
>I think that the tax collectors pay Euglyptus in advance of actually
>collecting the taxes.  These payments were, in effect, loans to the
>Governor-General and he is required to pay interest back to the tax
>collectors. As an offset, the tax collectors have the individual
>responsibility of converting properties and goods collected into
>coinage, alleviating this hardship from the treasury. In the end,
>the collectors would keep anything in excess of what they bid plus
>the interest due from the treasury; with the risk being that they
>might not collect as much as they originally bid.
>
>The collection of taxes and the conversion of properties into specie
>is presumably handled by leagues and associations (and is probably
>given to whatever league is affiliated with the Governor-General).
>Presumably the Etyries cult is very tightly linked into the process.

If this structure actually existed in Sartar the whole social
structure would collapse within a few years. There is every incentive
for the tax collectors to just seize everything they can lay their
hands on and rely on the army to supress the resulting revolts.

However if we assume that any bidding is a formality and that the
associations use political connections with the Governor-General
to get the contracts it becomes necessary for them to work with
him to get the renewal and not overtax. So the Governor-General
becomes involved in setting the actual tax rates for individual
tribes - not surprising as the most lucrative ones will probably
be allocated to the association his family are involved in.

All this does is transfer the bureaucracy from an Imperial body
to that of a league or association. Same people, just working
for a different boss.

It also creates a lot more storylines, you've got the association
who knows their contract isn't going to be renewed because of
political changes and have to make as much money as they can on
this years collection. There's the representaive of one association
who tries to get a clan to revolt so that another association can
be shown to be overtaxing. etc.

--
Donald Oddy
http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/

> If this structure actually existed in Sartar the whole social
> structure would collapse within a few years. There is every
incentive
> for the tax collectors to just seize everything they can lay their
> hands on and rely on the army to supress the resulting revolts.

For what it is worth, the described structure was the norm for tax
collection in the Roman provinces.  And not terribly dissimilar from
the system of tax farming in 17th-18th century France.  As a tax
farmer, you have to make a cost-benefit calculation - do I try to
seize everything and run a high risk of open rebellion (and
presumably get billed for the use of military force or even get
criminal prosecution for my avarice), or do I try to figure out
myself how much I can safely seize without running a significant
risk of rebellion?

> However if we assume that any bidding is a formality and that the
> associations use political connections with the Governor-General
> to get the contracts it becomes necessary for them to work with
> him to get the renewal and not overtax. So the Governor-General
> becomes involved in setting the actual tax rates for individual
> tribes - not surprising as the most lucrative ones will probably
> be allocated to the association his family are involved in.

Exactly!  But this is a more complicated and less formal system than
you had previously described - and one frought with MGF
opportunities.

> It also creates a lot more storylines, you've got the association
> who knows their contract isn't going to be renewed because of
> political changes and have to make as much money as they can on
> this years collection. There's the representaive of one association
> who tries to get a clan to revolt so that another association can
> be shown to be overtaxing. etc.

Perfect agreement.  Other storylines include the difficulty of
transforming the collected tax (cattle, grain, wool, bits of amber,
pots, cloth, etc) into specie (which then gets exchanged for cattle,
grain, wool, metal goods, pots, cloth, etc.).  This is why I think
the Eytries cult are deeply involved in provincial tax farming.

Jeff