This is a test of the emergency Heros Broadcast.

If this was a real emergency, your leaders would have left and you'd
have died in ignorance.

This is only a test.

Jeff Kyer
Moderator

P.S.  The point of this list is a sort of how too and intro level for
HeroWars and, by extension, Glorantha.  Play nice folks!

Could folks tell me whether or not they get this adn whether or not
they can get the list name from the onelist homepage or not?

There were problems with not seeing the list from there.

Jeff

Yup got.
But no I cant find the list direct from the oneline homepage.
I suspect its because the organisation is a bit pants.
It's probably under 'vegtible lovers' menu or the like.
Searching works though.

Chris

Chris Brown wrote:
>
> From: "Chris Brown" <cjb@...>
>
> Yup got.
> But no I cant find the list direct from the oneline homepage.
> I suspect its because the organisation is a bit pants.
> It's probably under 'vegtible lovers' menu or the like.
> Searching works though.
>
> Chris
>

Thanks.  Hmmm.  A subgroup for Aldryami, eh? (grin)

I'll bug onelist again.  Sigh.

But at least we're searchable now.  That's a start.

Jeff

Welcome to the Hero Wars / Glorantha list. Since the rules are now
out, I am willing to kickstart this list.

We are hoping that this list can be used for the more esoteric or
non-rules discussions of Glorantha in the Hero Wars context.  This
should take the load off the HW-Rules list and to some extent, the
digest.

Hopefully, we can keep this list's tone as high and polite as the
HW-Rules list is!

Sincerely,

Jeff Kyer

In the time period of HW have all the Clans of Sartar formed into Tribes
and the Tribes into a Kingdom or are the still fragmented like in KoDP?

"Graham, Andrew" wrote:
>
> In the time period of HW have all the Clans of Sartar formed into Tribes
> and the Tribes into a Kingdom or are the still fragmented like in KoDP?
>

Yeah.  More or less.  There's a good history of Sartar on
www.glorantha.com (somewhere!).  I think a few of the long time
Gloranthi like Dave Dunham and MOB have similar material on their
websites (use the web-link on the Issaries site for surfage).  Others
more wise than I will give more details (like actual dates!) but its
like this:

King of Sartar, a book available through Issaries and Wizards's Attic,
has a pretty detailed, if idiosyncratic history of the kingdom.

1300's -- Tribes form from the emigree Heorlanders
1400's -- Tribes unite into Kingdom of Sartar, bascially a series of
tribal confederations centered around the cities Sartar built.
1610 -- Kingdom falls to Lunar invasion after long, long struggle.
1

Dates are pulled out of my (coffeeless) head and are probably grossly
incorrect

The Kingdom, at the time of HW, only exists in name, Termitain the
(insert etiphet of the day here), being disregarded by many tribal
kings.  In many ways, the kingdom has fragmented back into its original
tribal structure with only the Imperial garrisons really keeping order
through fear.

This is a gross over simplification but...

Jeff

"Graham, Andrew" wrote:
> >
> > In the time period of HW have all the Clans of Sartar
> formed into Tribes
> > and the Tribes into a Kingdom or are the still fragmented
> like in KoDP?
> >
>
> The Kingdom, at the time of HW, only exists in name, Termitain the
> (insert etiphet of the day here), being disregarded by many tribal
> kings.  In many ways, the kingdom has fragmented back into
> its original
> tribal structure with only the Imperial garrisons really keeping order
> through fear.
>
> This is a gross over simplification but...
>
>
Thanks this helps as we were planning to run a Clan based game
and wanted to know if we would be involved in Tribal affairs too.

> > The Kingdom, at the time of HW, only exists in name, Termitain the
> > (insert etiphet of the day here), being disregarded by many tribal
> > kings.  In many ways, the kingdom has fragmented back into
> > its original
> > tribal structure with only the Imperial garrisons really keeping order
> > through fear.
> >
> > This is a gross over simplification but...
> >
> >
> Thanks this helps as we were planning to run a Clan based game
> and wanted to know if we would be involved in Tribal affairs too.
>

I think you would be.  There's a map kicking around which has most of
the tribal areas on it.  I'm not sure who's got it on their website, but
the clans in tribes have always been undefined, which is a godsend for
the GM.  If you can find any copies of Tales of the Reachign Moon,
there's some very good articles on tribal/clan society.

And dave Dunham's got a good tribal saga (set in the 1300's) on his
website.

Jeff

> "Graham, Andrew" wrote:
> >
> > In the time period of HW have all the Clans of Sartar formed into
Tribes
> > and the Tribes into a Kingdom or are the still fragmented like in
KoDP?

In the 1602-1625 period I'd say that the kingdom is dead (the flame
went out, didn't it?).  Tribes and clans are all that are left.  I
treat Sartar as a place on a map and a cultural ideal, it isn't a
political entity worth mentioning.

Even at its peak, I don't think Sartar was all that centralized.  At
the most it was like the US with the "Articles of Confederacy"
(http://www.elon.edu/gunderj/artcon.htm).  Common name, they kinda
work together, sorta.  Just don't push it too far.  The central
government certainly doesn't have a big stick to force the clans and
tribes in line.  But then again, Sartar himself was never known to use
violence.  The Kingdom has always worked by people deciding that they
have more to gain from unity.  Buy-in, not force.  What a concept.

One thing I want to point out is that you don't have to use the HW
period (1621-??) if you don't want to.  I always have because I like
the barbarians against the <cough: evil> empire spin.  Dave Dunham (Mr
KoDP himself) doesn't seem to ever run in the 1600s.  His website has
various bits and pieces of info that could be interesting for someone
running in a different time period.

"KYER, JEFFREY" <jeff.kyer@c...> wrote:
>
> 1300's -- Tribes form from the emigree Heorlanders
> 1400's -- Tribes unite into Kingdom of Sartar, bascially a series of
> tribal confederations centered around the cities Sartar built.
> 1610 -- Kingdom falls to Lunar invasion after long, long struggle
>
> Dates are pulled out of my (coffeeless) head and are probably
grossly
> incorrect.

Nope, they're right on.  I just glanced at _King_of_Sartar_ last week
looking for info about a tribe I will be using.  IIRC the dates are

	 1325 - first wave (Colymar were pre-first wave)
	 1480s - Kingdom of Sartar founded
	 1602 - the fall of Boldhome

The direct struggle was kinda short.  1582 was the Battle of Grizzly
Peak where the Tarsh-in-Exile group got plowed under and the northern
tribes (Alda Chur and Alone areas) joined Sartar.  So at most it was
20 years of direct fighting between the LE and Sartar.  Note that a
good number of Sartarites were helping the Tarsh Exiles, so the line
was fuzzy.

- doug

--- In HeroWars@egroups.com, "KYER, JEFFREY" <jeff.kyer@c...> wrote:

> > >
> > Thanks this helps as we were planning to run a Clan based game
> > and wanted to know if we would be involved in Tribal affairs too.
> >
>
> I think you would be.

<AOL> Me too </AOL>

> There's a map kicking around which has most of
> the tribal areas on it.  I'm not sure who's got it on their website,
but
> the clans in tribes have always been undefined,

The map I prefer, mostly because of the tribes, is
http://home.primus.com.au/arkat/sartar.html but
http://www.bvcompuworks.com/wesley/graphics/maps/p
rax_dp_map_download.jpg
looks better (IMHO).

- doug

> Even at its peak, I don't think Sartar was all that centralized.  At
> the most it was like the US with the "Articles of Confederacy"
> (http://www.elon.edu/gunderj/artcon.htm).  Common name, they kinda
> work together, sorta.  Just don't push it too far.  The central
> government certainly doesn't have a big stick to force the clans and
> tribes in line.  But then again, Sartar himself was never known to use
> violence.  The Kingdom has always worked by people deciding that they
> have more to gain from unity.  Buy-in, not force.  What a concept.

Sounds more like the Canadian Conferation, really.
>
> "KYER, JEFFREY" <jeff.kyer@c...> wrote:
> >
> Nope, they're right on.  I just glanced at _King_of_Sartar_ last week
> looking for info about a tribe I will be using.  IIRC the dates are
>
>         1325 - first wave (Colymar were pre-first wave)
>         1480s - Kingdom of Sartar founded
>         1602 - the fall of Boldhome
>
> The direct struggle was kinda short.  1582 was the Battle of Grizzly
> Peak where the Tarsh-in-Exile group got plowed under and the northern
> tribes (Alda Chur and Alone areas) joined Sartar.  So at most it was
> 20 years of direct fighting between the LE and Sartar.  Note that a
> good number of Sartarites were helping the Tarsh Exiles, so the line
> was fuzzy.
>
> - doug

Actually, the Sartarites had formed a major part of the Tarsh forces for
about 30 years before Grizzly Peak, which is why I considered it a
longer struggle.  Once the Tarsh border went, things got ugly in very
short order.

Jeff

--- In HeroWars@egroups.com, "Graham, Andrew" <agraham@m...> wrote:
>
> In the time period of HW have all the Clans of Sartar formed into
Tribes
> and the Tribes into a Kingdom or are the still fragmented like in
KoDP?

    Yes they have. Its worth noting that the computer game greatly
simplifies things for purposes of playability - Sartar actually has
seventeen tribes (not counting Far Point, which was added shrotly
before the Conquest) with something an average of about six or seven
clans each. Three of the tribes are not 'normal' Heortlings (Sun
County, Ducks and the Telmori).
    In the computer game, you found the kingdom by (among other
things)
getting a group of tribes to create a town with you. In the RPG
setting, this happened a number of times shortly before the kingdom
was created (by a chap named Sartar). Thus three 'tribal
confederations exist, each consisting of a group of tribes who share
the same town, although there isn't an overall leader for the
confederation. A number of tribes aren't part of confederations,
though, while the city of Boldhome acts as national capitol and isn't
associated with any specific group of tribes.
    At the top is the King, although there's currently a puppet on the
throne with administration actually in the hands of the Lunar
Conquerors.

Trotsky

--- In HeroWars@egroups.com, "KYER, JEFFREY" <jeff.kyer@c...> wrote:
>
> Actually, the Sartarites had formed a major part of the Tarsh
> forces for about 30 years before Grizzly Peak, which is why I
> considered it a longer struggle.  Once the Tarsh border went,
> things got ugly in very short order.

I wasn't aware that the Kingdom sent troops.  I thought that various
tribes did, but not as part of some "royal deployment".  Nor did I
know that "Sartarites had formed a major part" of the fighting.  I
assumed that the Exiles were carrying the brunt of it (and getting
hammered).  Should I re-read KoS in more detail, or is this in some
other source (Tarsh War)?  The clan that my PCs (uh, heroes, excuse
me) will be from has strong ties to the old Tarsh Exile goverment, so
I'd like to not get this stuff too wrong.

- doug

--- In HeroWars@egroups.com, "doug " <douglas.seay@m...> wrote:

> I wasn't aware that the Kingdom sent troops.  I thought that various
> tribes did, but not as part of some "royal deployment".

    The kings certainly must have helped them out, given that a number
of them died as a result! But I don't think they could really compel
the tribes to obey if they didn't want to (in the Torkani history at
my website, the tribe refuses to do so at one point). So, not really
a
royal deployment as such, but at least with royal approval and, at
times, moral pressure.

> Nor did I
> know that "Sartarites had formed a major part" of the fighting.  I
> assumed that the Exiles were carrying the brunt of it (and getting
> hammered).

    Depends what you mean by a 'major part', I think. Not the
majority,
I suspect - though its a while since I've read KoS, so I could be
wrong.

Trotsky

doug wrote:
>
> --- In HeroWars@egroups.com, "KYER, JEFFREY" <jeff.kyer@c...> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, the Sartarites had formed a major part of the Tarsh
> > forces for about 30 years before Grizzly Peak, which is why I
> > considered it a longer struggle.  Once the Tarsh border went,
> > things got ugly in very short order.
>
> I wasn't aware that the Kingdom sent troops.  I thought that various
> tribes did, but not as part of some "royal deployment".  Nor did I
> know that "Sartarites had formed a major part" of the fighting.  I
> assumed that the Exiles were carrying the brunt of it (and getting
> hammered).  Should I re-read KoS in more detail, or is this in some
> other source (Tarsh War)?  The clan that my PCs (uh, heroes, excuse
> me) will be from has strong ties to the old Tarsh Exile goverment, so
> I'd like to not get this stuff too wrong.
>
> - doug
>

The king and most of his bodyguard died at Grizzly Peak, as I recall.
Sounds like a pretty good definition of a deployment.  Yes, the source
was in KoS.  But I could misrecalling things myself. However, the losses
at Grizzly Peak did hurt Sartar for a time and was one of the (many)
factors that led to the kingdom's lethal weakness when the Lunars
finally did assault them.

BTW, did the Sun Dome County boys show up for the final battle, if so,
on what side?

But hey, if you want, you can have your clan/tribe have been very much
associated with those events.  Again, there was  lot of emigration
backand forth through the pass during the 15th and 16th centuries. But
the Tarsh Exiles are in Wintertop, are they not?  Th

I am a member of a number of mailing lists, and am always having to
consider the 'overload' (not having enough time to read everything)!

I have subscribed to this eGroup (obviously), but I notice that there
is also the:

hw-rules eGroup (which seems well supported).

Are both groups going to continue to be run? Or should I subscribe to
both? Or will this group 'HeroWars' ultimately be 'the' Issaries
group for HW?

Many thanks

Robbie

On Thu, 18 May 2000 20:49:20 -0000, "Robbie C" <robbie@...>
wrote:

>Are both groups going to continue to be run? Or should I subscribe to
>both? Or will this group 'HeroWars' ultimately be 'the' Issaries
>group for HW?

This is 'Hero Wars - the world of Glorantha' group, for setting and
campaign discussion & rules (like cult & personality writeups, how to
run a Clan), the other one is 'Hero Wars - the RPG' group for rules
discussion (like, what are wounds for?  What the hell does Sunset leap
mean?). There's also the Glorantha digest, for Gloranthan discussion
without specific reference to Hero Wars.

Ideally, all 3 should co-exist without excessive crossover, so really
you need to be subscribed to all.

Wulf

--- In HeroWars@egroups.com, Wulf Corbett <wulfc@w...> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 May 2000 20:49:20 -0000, "Robbie C" <robbie@d...>
> wrote:
>
> >Are both groups going to continue to be run? Or should I subscribe
to
> >both? Or will this group 'HeroWars' ultimately be 'the' Issaries
> >group for HW?
>
> This is 'Hero Wars - the world of Glorantha' group, for setting and
> campaign discussion & rules (like cult & personality writeups, how
to
> run a Clan), the other one is 'Hero Wars - the RPG' group for rules
> discussion (like, what are wounds for?  What the hell does Sunset
leap
> mean?). There's also the Glorantha digest, for Gloranthan discussion
> without specific reference to Hero Wars.
>
> Ideally, all 3 should co-exist without excessive crossover, so
really
> you need to be subscribed to all.
>
> Wulf

Cheers for the info, Wulf. I will do as you say and subscribe to the
HW rule group and will check out the Glorantha digest . . . phew!

|This is 'Hero Wars - the world of Glorantha' group, for setting and
|campaign discussion & rules (like cult & personality writeups, how to
|run a Clan), the other one is 'Hero Wars - the RPG' group for rules
|discussion (like, what are wounds for?  What the hell does Sunset leap
|mean?). There's also the Glorantha digest, for Gloranthan discussion
|without specific reference to Hero Wars.
|
|Ideally, all 3 should co-exist without excessive crossover, so really
|you need to be subscribed to all.

The Glorantha Digest is definitely the place to argue Gloranthan esoterica.
If you're not a Glorantha expert, and you need to know something to run an
HW campaign, you should probably post it on HeroWars. If you need rules
clarifications for HW, HW-Rules is the mailing list to have.

Guy

Jeffery Kyer wrote:

>BTW, did the Sun Dome County boys show up for the final battle, if so,
>on what side?

Depends on which Temple.  The Dragon Pass Count personally swore
allegiance to Tarkalor so his dudes would have been there if
Tarkalor called upon them for help.

I don't think the Praxian Sun Domers were there.

>But
>the Tarsh Exiles are in Wintertop, are they not?

Most exile tribes or clans would have been expelled there
after Grizzley Peak IMO.  Before then, KoS indicates
conservative tribesmen dwelt in strength beyond Dunstop,
Goldedge and Slavewall.

--Peter Metcalfe

Jeffery Kyer wrote:

>Actually, the Sartarites had formed a major part of the Tarsh forces for
>about 30 years before Grizzly Peak, which is why I considered it a
>longer struggle.  Once the Tarsh border went, things got ugly in very
>short order.

The Tarshite/Sartarite "border" wasn't actually established until
Grizzley Peak as before then, there were a whole lot of conservative
Tarshites in the way.

Before GP, the Sartarites only appeared at one battle on behalf of
Palashee Longaxe (and had gone home before the next).  There's
little else to indicate that they played an important part in
Tarshite struggles and IMO, any sartarites would have probably
done so with a mercenary attitude.

--Peter Metcalfe

Doug wrote:

>I wasn't aware that the Kingdom sent troops.

Before GP, the Kingdom sent troops on only one known occasion,
Karnge farm where they were late.  I do think it's important
to realize that as being different Orlanthi nations, Sartar
would have bloody good reasons to fight for any Tarshite
and that what may seem like damn good ones to us (the domino
principle) may not be obvious at all to the Sartarites.

>I
>assumed that the Exiles were carrying the brunt of it (and getting
>hammered).

This is true, apart from the bit about being hammered.  The
Longaxe made a pretty successful go at resistance.

>The clan that my PCs (uh, heroes, excuse
>me) will be from has strong ties to the old Tarsh Exile goverment, so
>I'd like to not get this stuff too wrong.

There's no definitive stuff around detailing the Tarsh Exiles so
feel free to make up any connection that you want.

--Peter Metcalfe

Hey Folks,

I am in the process of starting a HW game set in Carmania (the Oronin Valley).
Hopefully, SGU will cover much of this but I doubt I can stall the game for
that long (August?).  Loren Miller's wonderful website
(http://www.ioxy.com/fabworlds/Carmania/index.html) has a little HW info
scattered around (NPC writeups for House Zemeidy), but what I need is something
to jumpstart the players with (keywords, abilities, ect).

In short, I want anything that anyone has come up with that would help run a
game in Carmania!  Any help would be greatly appreciated. :)

-Kevin

Graham asked

>In the time period of HW have all the Clans of Sartar formed into Tribes
>and the Tribes into a Kingdom or are the still fragmented like in KoDP?

The computer game basically puts you in the role of Sartar, as the
person who forms the kingdom. (OK, he is an Issaries hero and uses
slightly different approaches than the game portrays -- mostly he
cheats by not having to live there to begin with).

At the time of the Hero Wars, there are clans and tribes, but the
overall kingdom is no more.

(More later, got to run!)


David Dunham   <mailto:dunham@...>
Glorantha/HW/RQ page: <http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha.html>
Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

Robbie C wrote:
>
> I am a member of a number of mailing lists, and am always having to
> consider the 'overload' (not having enough time to read everything)!
>
> I have subscribed to this eGroup (obviously), but I notice that there
> is also the:
>
> hw-rules eGroup (which seems well supported).
>
> Are both groups going to continue to be run? Or should I subscribe to
> both? Or will this group 'HeroWars' ultimately be 'the' Issaries
> group for HW?
>
> Many thanks
>
> Robbie

hw-rules is for rules discussions in general.  This is for more
Gloranthan discussions.  As to where teh Issaries Group is going to be,
I can't tell you.  At least not at the moment.

Jeff

Wulf Corbett wrote:
>
> On Thu, 18 May 2000 20:49:20 -0000, "Robbie C" <robbie@...>
> wrote:
>
> >Are both groups going to continue to be run? Or should I subscribe to
> >both? Or will this group 'HeroWars' ultimately be 'the' Issaries
> >group for HW?
>
> This is 'Hero Wars - the world of Glorantha' group, for setting and
> campaign discussion & rules (like cult & personality writeups, how to
> run a Clan), the other one is 'Hero Wars - the RPG' group for rules
> discussion (like, what are wounds for?  What the hell does Sunset leap
> mean?). There's also the Glorantha digest, for Gloranthan discussion
> without specific reference to Hero Wars.
>
> Ideally, all 3 should co-exist without excessive crossover, so really
> you need to be subscribed to all.
>
> Wulf
>

Very well said.  I'll have to steal your words.  Thanks. =)

Jeff

guy hoyle wrote:
>
> |This is 'Hero Wars - the world of Glorantha' group, for setting and
> |campaign discussion & rules (like cult & personality writeups, how to
> |run a Clan), the other one is 'Hero Wars - the RPG' group for rules
> |discussion (like, what are wounds for?  What the hell does Sunset leap
> |mean?). There's also the Glorantha digest, for Gloranthan discussion
> |without specific reference to Hero Wars.
> |
> |Ideally, all 3 should co-exist without excessive crossover, so really
> |you need to be subscribed to all.
>
> The Glorantha Digest is definitely the place to argue Gloranthan esoterica.
> If you're not a Glorantha expert, and you need to know something to run an
> HW campaign, you should probably post it on HeroWars. If you need rules
> clarifications for HW, HW-Rules is the mailing list to have.
>
> Guy
>

Yes, we're trying to be a 'place to ask questions' without being a place
of deep, dire esoterica the way the Gloranthan Digest is.  Sadly, the
digest is fairly unapproachable and erudite much of the time.
Hopefully, this will be more to the level a beginner/neophyte for
Glorantha would be comfortable with.

And besides, HW questions don't go over very well on the Glorantha
Digest, I'd noticed.

Jeff

Peter Metcalfe wrote:
>
> Jeffery Kyer wrote:
>
> >Actually, the Sartarites had formed a major part of the Tarsh forces for
> >about 30 years before Grizzly Peak, which is why I considered it a
> >longer struggle.  Once the Tarsh border went, things got ugly in very
> >short order.
>
> The Tarshite/Sartarite "border" wasn't actually established until
> Grizzley Peak as before then, there were a whole lot of conservative
> Tarshites in the way.
>
> Before GP, the Sartarites only appeared at one battle on behalf of
> Palashee Longaxe (and had gone home before the next).  There's
> little else to indicate that they played an important part in
> Tarshite struggles and IMO, any sartarites would have probably
> done so with a mercenary attitude.
>
> --Peter Metcalfe
>

Point taken.  I was under the impression that a lot of younger sons and
verntursome Sartarites were up there making some hard coin, loot and
women for bringing home.

Admittedly, in my old pre-Fall of Sartar game there's a lot of traffic
that way.

Jeff