I am not sure if your comments are to my last comment or not. I didn't think I was changing to a different theory or question about the 10s/Kh discard.
You reported results on 1000 hands, leading trump, discarding Kh vs 10s. I think good results and appears valid under leading trump by the 1st seat. The original question was "what would you discard the 10s or the Kh?" Your results, as I understand it was performed by leading trump to the 1st trick. IMO, this is only one option the eldest has and is your theory to lead trump when available and is what the Fredulator actually does?
There are three other suits that could be led (a spade, heart or diamond) by the eldest. Results have not been tested for any of these other options
For me, we have an excellent topic here with 30 or so comments without getting at answer to the question "what is the best discard, the 10s or Kh compared against various suit that eldest can lead. Since you reported results for 1000 hands leading trump against each discard, my comment was/is that it would be interesting doing the same test while leading a spade (Kh discard) compared to the same hand leading a heart (10s discard). Maybe I am asking too much. And I didn't address a diamond lead as an option. This might be a 'different theory' than how your Fredulator is programmed, don't know?
If you cannot set-up the Fredulator to have 1st seat lead a spade or a heart . . . then we are all left hanging as to the best discard compared against 1st seat's leads, IMO.
Although we have beat this into the ground, at this point we have a partial answer that 'when eldest seat leads trump it marginally favors discarding the 10s over Kh'.
Score is 0-0, 2nd chair orders the 9C. Dealer holds AD KD KC 10S KH. What would YOU discard if you were the dealer?
--- On Tue, 7/14/09, Fred Benjamin <fastfredy0@...> wrote:
From: Fred Benjamin <fastfredy0@...> Subject: Re: [EuchreScience] Re: KH (green) trash? To: EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 7:37 PM
I take it that you wish to test a different theory .... whether or not to lead trump from the 1st seat when the 2nd seat orders hole card into the dealers hand. This is a different question and would require a different set up. The set up would vary with the flavor of the question. (The current set up is to test what 4 seat should do with 5 known cards, the up card and the fact that the 2nd seat has cards that favor ordering the up card. This is not suitable to testing what I am assuming you wish tested as I stated above.)
One could test a specific scenario.... like when 1st seat holds Right, Left, K, 10 of spades and 10D and A of spades was ordered up. One could test a more general question like is it a good idea to lead the singleton left in all scenarios... . One could test a even more general
question like is it a good idea to lead trump in all scenarios... . this might take a couple hours and 10,000 to 20,000 hands.
I apologize if I misinterpreted your question.
If you literally wish to test whether or not to lead trump when the 4th seat has KH, 10S, AD, KD and KC then I won't do it because that is a scenario that would almost never occur. That is to say there is never a legitimate hand where you know the cards of another player and this question would assume the 1st seat knew the 4th seat held the KH, 10S, AD, KD and KC. It is a difficult concept to explain. Hopefully, that made sense.
Sword
From: robin neill <rhyme_n_reason47@ yahoo.com> To: EuchreScience@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 12:00:55 AM Subject: Re: [EuchreScience] Re: KH (green) trash?
Makes sense to me!
Now can you switch and lead the singleton off suit instead of trump to evaluate not leading trump?
--- On Mon, 7/13/09, Fred Benjamin <fastfredy0@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Fred Benjamin <fastfredy0@yahoo. com> Subject: Re: [EuchreScience] Re: KH (green) trash? To: EuchreScience@ yahoogroups. com Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 9:36 PM
Score is 0-0, 2nd chair orders the 9C. Dealer holds AD KD KC 10S KH. > > > > > > What would YOU discard if you were the dealer?
Throw away 10S ... net 842 over 1,000 hands Throw away KH ... net 761 over 1,000 hands
Same hand but change clubs for spades and diamonds for hearts Throw away 10C .... net 806 over 1,000 hands Throw away KD ... net 765 over 1,000 hands
Create similar test and compare KS to 10C to try to see if quantify short black suit effects on results
Throw away 10C ... net 821 over 1,000 hands Throw away KS ... net 803 over 1,000 hands
I am not sure if your comments are to my last comment or not. I didn't think I was changing to a different theory or question about the 10s/Kh discard..  ...
You wouldn't happen to have the detailed +/- scoring for offense and defense would you Fred? It really doesn't matter much, I was just curious to see how many...
Discard KH 1025 pts for 264 pts against 761 net 2 pt 157 times 1 pt 711 times -2 pt 132 times Discard 10S 1080 pts for 238 pts against 842 net 2 pt 199 times 1...
If you are certain that other factor(s) like changing the way you play to confuse the opposition or playing differently because the opposition is playing a...
I understand that. Only, the question doesn't state one way or the other regarding the strength of your opponents. You make the assumption that analyzing the...
When setting up the Simulator for the hand in question I selected south as the dealer in the "Select Dealer" box. Then in the "Selected Cards" box I only...
That help to know! What do you do with all those hands that dealer's partner is not strong enough to order? And all those 1st chair and 3rd would be strong...
click "deal' again. ... partner is not strong enough to order? And all those 1st chair and 3rd would be strong enough to order? ... south ... north). ... I ...
Hmmm... you should not have to intervene in the process Todd. If you picked Search .. and 2 seat orders on 1st bid....then simulator will discard irrelevant...
I thought he (Todd) was saying if the assist hand does not measure up to being strong enough hand, then he would click deal again??  Please clarify? ... ...
I only played hands that 2nd ordered assisting. ... to being strong enough hand, then he would click deal again?? ... picked Search .. and 2 seat orders on 1st...
Thanks for the clarification, I understand the test set-up! Interesting to me!  It would also be interesting if the slight advantage to the 10s discard...
I neither used search, force or passive as it was NOT given as an option. I played manually. What mode is it in when one plays manually? ... picked Search .....
What mode is it in when one plays manually? I guess I would call it the brutally slow mode. If you are playing about 3 hands/sec then you are going too slow....
I'm sorry Fred. I did not select ANY option in the "Select Bidding Scenario and # of Hands" box. I hope that makes it more clear. ... picked Search .. and 2...
Best way to make it clear is to send me a PIC of the window where you made your selections. That is always crystal clear. (A picture is worth 1,000 words) ...
Step by step scenario of my 2 tests. I did 1 test discarding the KH until I completed 100 hands and again discarding the 10s for 100 hands. It took more deals...
Sounds about right to me Todd. I assumed you picked Search from Search, Force or (I forget the 3rd option). Search will ignore all irrelevant hands like when...
I don't think you will understand the answers to your questions ... we tried this before and neither Pimp or I could convince you of the logic of that previous...
KH (green) trash HAS to be winning the award as the subject with the most posts. ... From: Fred Benjamin <fastfredy0@...> Subject: Re: [EuchreScience]...
I agree this has some remarkable interest. I haven't been on here in a while and somehow got sucked into reading all of the posts on this. My question : Why...
Yeah I must admit I'm finding this slightly tangential discussion regarding what to lead to a 2nd seat assist much more interesting than the initial discussion...
They say never unguard the left. Well when 2nd orders the King or lower I will lead the lower of my guarded left holding. More times than not 2nd will drop his...
Yeah you could be right about that. At some scores I will unguard the left by leading the low trump... but I still don't like it. At other scores I won't as...
BTW Todd... I seem to recall that you almost always will lead trump when the 2nd seat orders up. This is not a problem for me as my default strategy is to...
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