I think Essex ended up with most of the moulds for the MM ranges.  It might
be worth while enquiring .    Most figure manufacturers retain moulds for old
ranges especially for this kind of event.   Can't loose anything by it.


Ian

Indeed, "Mr. Essex" did acquire the rights to the long-defunct Mike's
Models range.  (The only one range still produce is their Inca
range.)

I suppose it is possible that Essex would still have the old MM molds
(I had not thought of that), but given how much space that many molds
would take up, I rather suspect they were discarded long ago.  As you
say, no harm in asking, especially since I wouldn't be there to hear
'em laughing that some guy in Seattle would actually WANT them.  ;-)

The "hunt" for some of the bits and pieces I need from old Mike's
Models ranges is a pleasure in itself.  This forum and want-ads on
the
Fanaticus Resource Page have already yielded results, both in figures
and delightful correspondence with some fine chaps.  Hoping still to
find some Early Indian cavalry, chariots and elephants...
                  //Paul A. Hannah, Seattle  (PAHannah@...)

On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 14:52:10 -0000 PAHannah@... wrote:

> The "hunt" for some of the bits and pieces I need from old Mike's
> Models ranges is a pleasure in itself.  This forum and want-ads on
> the
> Fanaticus Resource Page have already yielded results, both in figures
> and delightful correspondence with some fine chaps.  Hoping still to
> find some Early Indian cavalry, chariots and elephants...

I remember their 6 man, 4 horse chariot with great nostalgia.  I had a
few of these beasts that, under WRG 5th, would ride over just about
anything, so long as they stayed alive long enough to do it.

Those were the days...

John

----------------------
John Hills
j.r.hills@...
http://freespace.virgin.net/johnr.hills/default.html

"Too many humans spend a lot of time in the middle of wars
that happened centuries ago", Terry Pratchett

Hi,
I'm a beginner and I have a doubt.
How must be calculated the points of Spear A, B, C when they fight Knight?


KnKnKn KnKnKn

SpSpSp SpSpSp SpSpSp
SpSpSp PsPsPs

   (A)    (B)    (C)


Sp(A): 4 +1 rear support  +1 Ps support  = 6
Sp(B&C): 4 +1 Ps support                   = 5

or

Sp(A): 4 +1 rear support and not support by Ps =5

Thanks

Dionigi

The "nostalgia", as you say, John, is certainly part of the appeal I
find in these old figures.  They harken back to an earlier time in the
hobby.  (Could it be that I'm 40+, wishing I were still 20?  Naw!)

They were the first figures I painted when a friend introduced me to
the hobby twenty years ago.  Some of the first figures I painted, MM
Tracian Peltasts and Successor Pikemen, I actually fished out of his
garbage can!  (He had just converted to the re-done 18mm MiniFigs.)

I'm glad I held on to them.  Sure, some of the casting are almost
cartoonish.  But with a good paint job...
                                      //Paul A. Hannah, Seattle

Hi

Good one.  Not sure the rules cover this as such, but I would say that
the second option is correct - you can't support with 2 units at once.

John


On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 23:20:46 +0100 =?iso-8859-1?Q?dionigi_iogh=E0?=
<iogha@...> wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm a beginner and I have a doubt.
> How must be calculated the points of Spear A, B, C when they fight
> Knight?
>
>
> KnKnKn KnKnKn
>
> SpSpSp SpSpSp SpSpSp
> SpSpSp PsPsPs
>
>   (A)    (B)    (C)
>
>
> Sp(A): 4 +1 rear support  +1 Ps support  = 6
> Sp(B&C): 4 +1 Ps support                   = 5
>
> or
>
> Sp(A): 4 +1 rear support and not support by Ps =5
>
> Thanks
>
> Dionigi
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

John

----------------------
John Hills
j.r.hills@...
http://freespace.virgin.net/johnr.hills/default.html

"Too many humans spend a lot of time in the middle of wars
that happened centuries ago", Terry Pratchett

HYPERLINK  \l "B" Hot List
  AUTOTEXT bullet Error! AutoText entry not defined.  HYPERLINK  \l "C" Contact
Information
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On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, John Hills wrote:

> Hi
>
> Good one.  Not sure the rules cover this as such, but I would say that
> the second option is correct - you can't support with 2 units at once.

The rules are pretty clear on this -- you're incorrect.  Psiloi support is
separate from double-spear-vs-knight support, and in some cases (as
constructed by Dionigi's question) an element can get both.

David Kuijt

> On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 23:20:46 +0100 =?iso-8859-1?Q?dionigi_iogh=E0?=
> <iogha@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > I'm a beginner and I have a doubt.
> > How must be calculated the points of Spear A, B, C when they fight
> > Knight?
> >
> >
> > KnKnKn KnKnKn
> >
> > SpSpSp SpSpSp SpSpSp
> > SpSpSp PsPsPs
> >
> >   (A)    (B)    (C)
> >
> >
> > Sp(A): 4 +1 rear support  +1 Ps support  = 6
> > Sp(B&C): 4 +1 Ps support                   = 5
> >
> > or
> >
> > Sp(A): 4 +1 rear support and not support by Ps =5
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dionigi
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> John
>
> ----------------------
> John Hills
> j.r.hills@...
> http://freespace.virgin.net/johnr.hills/default.html
>
> "Too many humans spend a lot of time in the middle of wars
> that happened centuries ago", Terry Pratchett
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:58:21 -0500 (EST) David KUIJT
<kuijt@...> wrote:

> The rules are pretty clear on this -- you're incorrect.

Just checked, and yes, the rules do not say you can't get both, so I
guess you can!

For consistency, though, it would be better if they could support from
behind 2 ranks of Spears, then, as we can now have a 3 wide block that
has factors of 6, 5, 6, with the centre unit being the weakest.

John

----------------------
John Hills
j.r.hills@...
http://freespace.virgin.net/johnr.hills/default.html

"Too many humans spend a lot of time in the middle of wars
that happened centuries ago", Terry Pratchett

On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, John Hills wrote:

> Just checked, and yes, the rules do not say you can't get both, so I
> guess you can!
>
> For consistency, though, it would be better if they could support from
> behind 2 ranks of Spears, then, as we can now have a 3 wide block that
> has factors of 6, 5, 6, with the centre unit being the weakest.

Hmm.  I see what you're trying to fix, but I'm not sure that your
suggestion doesn't cause other problems.  Do we want to invalidate psiloi
support for a wall of spear that is partly double deep and partly not?  Or
reword the rules for psiloi support to make that possible (but make the
wording much more complicated)?  It's a little bit of a tempest in a
teapot, though -- any wall of three Knights that hits a wall of factor
6/5/6 is pretty desperate, and the situation won't come up very often in
the real world.

DK

These are dangerous words. :)
Did you knock on wood?
Now you know the next 2 tournament victors will be decided my different
interpretations of this point.

:)

-----Original Message-----
From: David KUIJT [mailto:kuijt@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:18 PM
To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DBA] spear's rear support and psiloi

It's a little bit of a tempest in a teapot, though -- any wall of three
Knights that hits a wall of factor 6/5/6 is pretty desperate, and the
situation won't come up very often in the real world.

A Spears +5 vs Knight +3
B Spears +4 vs Knight +2

The rules imply that diagonal Ps is _not _ negated by a second rank Spear.
Maybe Phil did not intend it, but that's the way it reads.


Bob
beattie@...

--On Thu, Nov 1, 2001 4:33 PM +0100 John Hills <j.r.hills@...> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Good one.  Not sure the rules cover this as such, but I would say that
> the second option is correct - you can't support with 2 units at once.
>
> John
>
>
> On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 23:20:46 +0100 =?iso-8859-1?Q?dionigi_iogh=E0?=
> <iogha@...> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> I'm a beginner and I have a doubt.
>> How must be calculated the points of Spear A, B, C when they fight
>> Knight?
>>
>>
>> KnKnKn KnKnKn
>>
>> SpSpSp SpSpSp SpSpSp
>> SpSpSp PsPsPs
>>
>>  (A)    (B)    (C)
>>
>>
>> Sp(A): 4 +1 rear support  +1 Ps support  = 6
>> Sp(B&C): 4 +1 Ps support                   = 5
>>
>> or
>>
>> Sp(A): 4 +1 rear support and not support by Ps =5
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Dionigi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
> John
>
> ----------------------
> John Hills
> j.r.hills@...
> http://freespace.virgin.net/johnr.hills/default.html
>
> "Too many humans spend a lot of time in the middle of wars
> that happened centuries ago", Terry Pratchett
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

irob417410@... wrote:

I think Essex ended up with most of the moulds for the MM ranges.  It might
be worth while enquiring .    Most figure manufacturers retain moulds for old
ranges especially for this kind of event.   Can't loose anything by it.
 

Ian

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:17:37 -0500 (EST) David KUIJT
<kuijt@...> wrote:

> Hmm.  I see what you're trying to fix, but I'm not sure that your
> suggestion doesn't cause other problems.  Do we want to invalidate
> psiloi support for a wall of spear that is partly double deep and
> partly not?

I think I would prefer it that way.

I see the Psiloi spreading out along the back of the Spear formation.
If the Spears are in a very deep formation they will be less effective
and probably won't make a great deal of difference - not enough to give
a +1 anyway.

My rationalisation anyway.

John

----------------------
John Hills
j.r.hills@...
http://freespace.virgin.net/johnr.hills/default.html

"Too many humans spend a lot of time in the middle of wars
that happened centuries ago", Terry Pratchett

I am just getting into DBA, and would like to form Later Hungarians,
Hussites, Later Polish, Later Imperialist, and (perhaps) the
Ottomans, but I am having trouble finding references for uniform
types, shields and flag colors/designs, etc.  Does anyone know of
some good sites or books for these armies?  Thanks.

Mike

At 12:25 AM 11/5/01 +0000, you wrote:
>I am just getting into DBA, and would like to form Later Hungarians,
>Hussites, Later Polish, Later Imperialist, and (perhaps) the
>Ottomans, but I am having trouble finding references for uniform
>types, shields and flag colors/designs, etc.  Does anyone know of
>some good sites or books for these armies?  Thanks.

armies of medieavl europe Vol 2 by WRG. all you could ever want to know.
I've used it as a reference for several armies.

and you must have the ottomans if you are going to play eastern europe.
whats a game without the bad guys?

Cheers,
Rhys

Gee Rhys, don't I know you from somewhere (lol)!?  Yes, I agree that
I must have the Later Ottomans.  Not only are they a fixture, they
fought EVERYBODY.  You just can't leave out an army that made enemies
out of practically every other army in the period (which covers a
good 200+ years!).

Mike



--- In DBA@y..., Rhys Batchelor <rhys.batchelor@v...> wrote:
> At 12:25 AM 11/5/01 +0000, you wrote:
> >I am just getting into DBA, and would like to form Later
Hungarians,
> >Hussites, Later Polish, Later Imperialist, and (perhaps) the
> >Ottomans, but I am having trouble finding references for uniform
> >types, shields and flag colors/designs, etc.  Does anyone know of
> >some good sites or books for these armies?  Thanks.
>
> armies of medieavl europe Vol 2 by WRG. all you could ever want to
know.
> I've used it as a reference for several armies.
>
> and you must have the ottomans if you are going to play eastern
europe.
> whats a game without the bad guys?
>
> Cheers,
> Rhys

Rhys,

To add on to my reply, I'm in the U.S., and I can't seem to find a
place that sells WRG books anywhere!  Could you maybe point me in the
right direction of an online shop or other store?  Thanks.

Mike

On Mon, 05 Nov 2001 00:25:43 -0000 Mike <mjc333@...> wrote:

> I am just getting into DBA, and would like to form Later Hungarians,
> Hussites, Later Polish, Later Imperialist, and (perhaps) the
> Ottomans,

Great idea, I am working on these at the moment. You might also extend
your area a bit wider and add armies like the Wallacians, Golden Horde,
Teutonic Knights, Russians, Albanians, Serbs or Morean Byzantines.

John, still building up for his 24ish army campaign

----------------------
John Hills
j.r.hills@...
http://freespace.virgin.net/johnr.hills/default.html

"Too many humans spend a lot of time in the middle of wars
that happened centuries ago", Terry Pratchett

> To add on to my reply, I'm in the U.S., and I can't seem to find a
> place that sells WRG books anywhere!  Could you maybe point me in
the
> right direction of an online shop or other store?  Thanks.
>
> Mike

Try these guys! http://www.warweb.com/

I had my last order from them in less than a week.

Marty

Hi all,

   This is weird...some months ago I bought some Later Polish figures from a
friend, then put them away for future use.  Bob's article on DBA 2.0 in the
January issue of The Courier got me interested in DBA again, and I pulled
these figures out over the weekend to see what I had.  And when I get into
work this morning, someone is asking about painting references for the Later
Polish and related others.  Serendipity.

   Thanks for the WRB reference recommendation.  I'll see if I can scare up a
copy.  Thanks also for the Later Ottoman recommendation.  I haven't a clue
about Eastern medieval history, and this at least points me in the right
direction when choosing an adversary or two for my Poles.

   I'm going to order a copy of 2.0 later this week, but would like to order
the figures I need to fill out my army with it.  Would someone be willing to
send me the Later Polish list from 2.0, or at least tell me what else I
need?

   I have:
     - enough cavalry figures to do 4 x 3Kn and 4 x 4Cv, or some permutation
of Kn and Cv adding up to 8 elements.
     - 16 Peasant figures...these are too cool not to use...any suggestions
in this army or one of its Enemies?

   From the DBA 1.0 lists, I'll probably need some appropriate eastern
archers to make up some 3Bw or 4Bw elements, right?  Anything else?

   Thanks very much,

Will Scarvie

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

On Mon, 05 Nov 2001 07:41:17 -0800 William Scarvie
<wscarvie@...> wrote:

>   I have:
>     - enough cavalry figures to do 4 x 3Kn and 4 x 4Cv, or some
> permutation of Kn and Cv adding up to 8 elements.

That is good - I think you need 4 of each.

>     - 16 Peasant figures...these are too cool not to use...any
> suggestions in this army or one of its Enemies?

Teutonics get Hordes, or you could put them in a Wallacian army.

>   From the DBA 1.0 lists, I'll probably need some appropriate eastern
> archers to make up some 3Bw or 4Bw elements, right?  Anything else?

>From memory you will also need a couple of elements of LH, 1 or 2 8Bw
elements (double base with 4 spears and 4 arcbers on it) and a warwagon
if you only use 1 of the 8Bw elements.

A great army.  Can't wait to get mine finished.

John

----------------------
John Hills
j.r.hills@...
http://freespace.virgin.net/johnr.hills/default.html

"Too many humans spend a lot of time in the middle of wars
that happened centuries ago", Terry Pratchett

Hello to all,

This has nothing to do with William's letter or John's letter.  A
question, are there any people in Taiwan who are into DBA??

Sincerely,

Lee Shackelford

William Scarvie wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>  This is weird...some months ago I bought some Later Polish figures from a
>friend, then put them away for future use.  Bob's article on DBA 2.0 in the
>January issue of The Courier got me interested in DBA again, and I pulled
>these figures out over the weekend to see what I had.  And when I get into
>work this morning, someone is asking about painting references for the Later
>Polish and related others.  Serendipity.
>
>  Thanks for the WRB reference recommendation.  I'll see if I can scare up a
>copy.  Thanks also for the Later Ottoman recommendation.  I haven't a clue
>about Eastern medieval history, and this at least points me in the right
>direction when choosing an adversary or two for my Poles.
>
>  I'm going to order a copy of 2.0 later this week, but would like to order
>the figures I need to fill out my army with it.  Would someone be willing to
>send me the Later Polish list from 2.0, or at least tell me what else I
>need?
>
>  I have:
>    - enough cavalry figures to do 4 x 3Kn and 4 x 4Cv, or some permutation
>of Kn and Cv adding up to 8 elements.
>    - 16 Peasant figures...these are too cool not to use...any suggestions
>in this army or one of its Enemies?
>
>  From the DBA 1.0 lists, I'll probably need some appropriate eastern
>archers to make up some 3Bw or 4Bw elements, right?  Anything else?
>
>  Thanks very much,
>
>Will Scarvie
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I'm planning on using 6mm figures, which is both good and bad.  The
bad thing is, it's very hard (impossible?) to find specific figures
for the armies of Eastern Europe, but the good thing is since 6mm are
quite small, and it is the mass effect which counts, most Medieval
figures from the same century will fit.

Also, I'm going to use 6mm figures on 15mm size bases, and cram the
bases with figures.  For Kn I'm going to have 10-12 on a base, and 24
or more for Pk or Sp.  I'll most likely go with Heroics & Ros
figures.  Even with the "cramming technique," I should be able to
make two armies for around $22.00, and each army would consist of
about 45-60 cavalry figures, and 70-80 foot figures.  Since these
armies consist heavily of Ps, some stands will not have many
figures.  That's not too bad.  NOT like the Scots Common army which
contains 8 Pk's!  With my 6mm basing technique, that would be close
to 200 figures for just those 8 elements.

Mike

On Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:59:50 -0000 Mike <mjc333@...> wrote:

>  NOT like the Scots Common army which
> contains 8 Pk's!  With my 6mm basing technique, that would be close
> to 200 figures for just those 8 elements.

Hey, can't the Scots (or is it Low Countries) stretch to 10 Pikes?

John

----------------------
John Hills
j.r.hills@...
http://freespace.virgin.net/johnr.hills/default.html

"Too many humans spend a lot of time in the middle of wars
that happened centuries ago", Terry Pratchett

>I'm planning on using 6mm figures, which is both good and bad.  The
>bad thing is, it's very hard (impossible?) to find specific figures
>for the armies of Eastern Europe, but the good thing is since 6mm are
>quite small, and it is the mass effect which counts, most Medieval
>figures from the same century will fit.

thats the way my 15mm armies work.

>Also, I'm going to use 6mm figures on 15mm size bases, and cram the
>bases with figures.  For Kn I'm going to have 10-12 on a base, and 24
>or more for Pk or Sp.  I'll most likely go with Heroics & Ros
>figures.  Even with the "cramming technique," I should be able to
>make two armies for around $22.00, and each army would consist of
>about 45-60 cavalry figures, and 70-80 foot figures.  Since these
>armies consist heavily of Ps, some stands will not have many
>figures.  That's not too bad.  NOT like the Scots Common army which
>contains 8 Pk's!  With my 6mm basing technique, that would be close
>to 200 figures for just those 8 elements.

I'm planning to use DBM 25mm base sizes. its possible to cram an entire
pack of H&R heavy infantry on a base, and I think I should be able to get
50-60 cavalry figures on the Kn(I) wedge base with a good representation of
the actually formation.
I'm planning on building my armies to play DBM at the 100AP level.

Cheers,
Rhys

Hi John,

   Thanks for the feedback...nice to hear from your again too.  Did
that FR! campaign ever finish up?  :-)

> >     - 16 Peasant figures...these are too cool not to use...any
> > suggestions in this army or one of its Enemies?
>
> Teutonics get Hordes, or you could put them in a Wallacian army.

   Teutonics, eh?  Ghosts of WRG 7th past...I remember these guys
having a reputation as a "killer" army in WRG 7th.  Anyway, they'd be
an interesting opponent for the Poles.  After I build an Ottoman army
of course...I've always wanted to paint an Ottoman army.  I even
looked into the possibility of fielding the Ottoman Turks using
Napoleon's Battles many years ago :-)

> >From memory you will also need a couple of elements of LH, 1 or
>2 8Bw elements (double base with 4 spears and 4 arcbers on it) and
>a warwagon if you only use 1 of the 8Bw elements.

   Someone was kind enough to send me the list a bit earlier today.
It looks like I'll need the following to provide myself with all of
the options allowed by the list:

   1 x 4Bd
   3 x 2LH
   2 x 8Cb
   1 x War wagon

   Now I know next to nothing about this army.  I'm building it
because a) it's exotic, b) I get to paint heraldry and c) I got the
figures in a trade and now have something to use them for.

   So, any help as to what these units should look like?  I assume the
4Bd is dismounted knights?  How about the LH?  Mounted crossbowmen,
perhaps?  Horse archers?  And, the list forwarded to me lists the
foot elements as 8Cb rather than 8Bw.  I assume these two units are
treated the same, and the Cb notation just means I should use
crossbowmen (behind the front rank of spear...thanks for that
John!)?  How about that War Wagon?  Is this a true "hussite" war
wagon, or something even more exotic with similar properties?

   Best of all would be recommendations from the 15mm Essex line.
That's where my Knights came from.

   OK, one more question: how do you typically distinguish Kn elements
from Cv elements in medieval armies?  Barding perhaps?  Heavier
armor? More pennants? Any suggestions?

   I'm amused to learn (assuming the list I was sent is right) that an
army with 4 Kn and 4 Cav units has an aggression factor of 1 :-)

   Thanks all,

Will Scarvie

Hello,

I have been living in Taiwan for the last 8 years.  So far, I have found
no interest in wagaming, be it board games like RISK or Panzer General
or tabletop games like D&D. I would like to play some DBA games.  Is
there anyone on this mailing who lives in Taiwan?  If you want to get
together, give me a call or write.  My home phone number is 2600-0646.
  I live in Linkou, Taiwan.

Thanks

Lee Shackelford

>  So, any help as to what these units should look like?  I assume the
>4Bd is dismounted knights?

in the DBM list these guys are described as axe men and are only 3 to a
base, which is an interesting difference. lightly armoured guys carrying
axes Polish Knights never dismount.

How about the LH?  Mounted crossbowmen,
>perhaps?  Horse archers?

Horse archers

  And, the list forwarded to me lists the
>foot elements as 8Cb rather than 8Bw.  I assume these two units are
>treated the same, and the Cb notation just means I should use
>crossbowmen (behind the front rank of spear...thanks for that
>John!)?

DBA and DBM don't distinguish between types of Bw. the polish infantry were
recorded as a rank of spearmen with 8-10 ranks of crossbowmen behind. far
easier to simulate in 6mm hint hint.

How about that War Wagon?  Is this a true "hussite" war
>wagon, or something even more exotic with similar properties?

the polish warwagons were copied from the hussite ones, so they would look
the same I think.

>  OK, one more question: how do you typically distinguish Kn elements
>from Cv elements in medieval armies?  Barding perhaps?  Heavier
>armor? More pennants? Any suggestions?

Knights should be fully armoured, while cav tend to carry spears rather
than lances, and little armour
For my Medieval cavalry I've used figures from the eastern europe range
that look quite good.

Cheers,
Rhys