How about using the elephants as scythed chariots, but retaining the rules for
running amok etc. That seems to reflect how hannibal was using them. They will
not be key units so do not affect breakpoints, They will disappear relatively
quickly unless they are successful. They are not going to tire out the Roman
first line unduly.

Was Zama actually a battle that could have gone either way? I have always felt
that Scipio did not leave much to chance. Hannibal would noy have normally, but
this was not the sort of battle plan he usually adopted. Maybe Zama should be
difficult for Carthage to win?




________________________________
From: "ARMATI@yahoogroups.com" <ARMATI@yahoogroups.com>
To: ARMATI@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2009 10:08:30 AM
Subject: [ARMATI] Digest Number 3948


In support of the ARMATI historical miniatures game, by Arty Conliffe..
Messages In This Digest (8 Messages)
1a.
Re: "Battle of Zama" scenario From: ashley.solo
1b.
Re: "Battle of Zama" scenario From: Mark Grindlay
1c.
Re: "Battle of Zama" scenario From: sfp55@...
1d..
Re: "Battle of Zama" scenario From: ashley.solo
1e.
Re: "Battle of Zama" scenario From: sfp55@...
2a.
Casualty Figures From: Graham Bryson
3a.
wort rules????? From: glen7764
3b.
Re: wort rules????? From: Christopher Leach View All Topics | Create New Topic
Messages
1a.
Re: "Battle of Zama" scenario
Posted by: "ashley.solo" ashley.solo@...   ashley.solo
Wed Jul 1, 2009 3:24 am (PDT)


My recent experience has been what is best called 'big battle Intro scale'.

i played standard Armati Zama a while back. The game was set up with armies
deployed. All foot were deployed wide except Trarii which were old style half
units. both armies deployed in several lines. The Roman centre had velites in
front. The Carthaginians had elephants in front.

The velites got some success against the elephants, the rest were despatched by
the legions (7 v 4 .. but the 4 has impetus ..).. Romans win the infantry slog.

Unlike refighting the Italian campaign, of course, no quick win for Hannibal on
the flanks either.

If you use army BPs to define victory and count the elephants as key units, the
Carthaginians lose early.

Hard for the Romans to lose.

If the elephants are not key, and can cause the Roman HI some fatigues, there is
a chance for a Carthaginian who follows quickly in with infantry. Probably how
Hannibal hoped to win. OK. but even tired Romans are tough in Armati.

did Hannibal expect Rome's Numidians to fight tenaciously if he was winning the
infantry battle? probably not :) Sad for him, reliability is not an issue in
Armati.

Ash

--- In ARMATI@yahoogroups. com, "Chris Cosentino" <chriscos18@ ....> wrote:
>
> That's right. The Romans, neither of whom had ever played before, attempted to
sweep the Carthaginian right flank. THey 3 heavy divisions angled in that
direction and got caught in at awkward angle when contact was first made.
Fortunately for the Romans (unfortunately for my son who was managing the
Carthaginian right) the Romans were able to win the first melees and the
Carthaginians were never able to get all their forces into contact. The
elephants got chewed up and support was late in coming.
>
> Chris Coz
>
> --- In ARMATI@yahoogroups. com, "emanfpc" <emanfpc@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ash, you wrote ">In your set of photos, it looks as if the Roman centre
is advancing at a sort of oblique angle. i wonder why?<"
> > A: I was helping out the Carthaginians, Chris (Coz) was helping out the
Romans, maybe he can answer better then me, but when we lifted the screens the
Roman right side player had most his Legions set at an angle and advanced in
that oblique angle.
> > My guess is that they wanted to bring as many units as they could against
the Carthaginian Right, hoping to break that side.
> > And an interesting aspect is that the Carthage Right is indeed what broke
first.
> > .
> > > It then looks as if the Carthaginian elephants have steamed in
perpendicular to this advance and managed to catch a unit (in depth - I nearly
said 'cohort'!) in the flank.<
> > A: yes you are correct, and that one Elephant Div had to take a voluntary
break in order to catch that Roman unit as the remaining EL of that div was in a
melee with a Roman SI (Velites). And if I remember correctly, that EL in the
melee with the SI lost.
> >
> > Hope this helps, thanks.
> >
> >
> > _
> > --- In ARMATI@yahoogroups. com, "ashley.solo" <ashley.solo@ > wrote:
> > > In your set of photos, it looks as if the Roman centre is advancing at a
sort of oblique angle. i wonder why?
> > > It then looks as if the Carthaginian elephants have steamed in
perpendicular to this advance and managed to catch a unit (in depth - I nearly
said 'cohort'!) in the flank.
> > >
> > > this does all rather look like the Roman got himself in a tangle. Normally
the elephants have to do it the hard way (OK Velites after them and
Principes/Hastati deployed wide usually sees them off)...
> > >
> > > Interesting the way it exposes having SI 1-wide and El 2-wide creates a
screening issue for the Romans.
> > >
> > > Hmm
> > >
> > > Ash
> > >
> > >
> >
>


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Messages in this topic (15)
1b.
Re: "Battle of Zama" scenario
Posted by: "Mark Grindlay" mark.grindlay@...   mark_grindlay2000
Wed Jul 1, 2009 6:25 am (PDT)


Ash,

"did Hannibal expect Rome's Numidians to fight tenaciously if he was winning the
infantry battle? probably not :) Sad for him, reliability is not an issue in
Armati."

I rather gathered he only found out they were fighting at all once the battle
had started.

Not sure where I picked that up from, though.

Mark

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Messages in this topic (15)
1c.
Re: "Battle of Zama" scenario
Posted by: "sfp55@..." sfp55@...   steveatglobpro
Wed Jul 1, 2009 8:59 am (PDT)


In a message dated 7/1/2009 3:24:46 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
ashley.solo@ yahoo.com writes:

If the elephants are not key, and can cause the Roman HI some fatigues,
there is a chance for a Carthaginian who follows quickly in with infantry.
Probably how Hannibal hoped to win. OK. but even tired Romans are tough in
Armati.

The elephants cannot be Key, because they were newly raised.

did Hannibal expect Rome's Numidians to fight tenaciously if he was
winning the infantry battle? probably not :) Sad for him, reliability is not an
issue in Armati..

I have always had a problem with the concept that Hannibal told his cavalry
to run away. This presupposes that the Socii would naturally pursue, a
tentative strategy at best. Hannibal was never about tentativeness.

Steve
************ **Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops – Deals
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Messages in this topic (15)
1d.
Re: "Battle of Zama" scenario
Posted by: "ashley.solo" ashley.solo@...   ashley.solo
Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:39 pm (PDT)


> The elephants cannot be Key, because they were newly raised.

anyone using Armati 2 lists as a start point will have them as key units, Steve
(and @ a fairly costly 10 points each, I think).

Ash

--- In ARMATI@yahoogroups. com, sfp55@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/1/2009 3:24:46 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> ashley.solo@ ... writes:
>
> If the elephants are not key, and can cause the Roman HI some fatigues,
> there is a chance for a Carthaginian who follows quickly in with infantry.
> Probably how Hannibal hoped to win. OK. but even tired Romans are tough in
> Armati.
>
>
> The elephants cannot be Key, because they were newly raised.
>
>
> did Hannibal expect Rome's Numidians to fight tenaciously if he was
> winning the infantry battle? probably not :) Sad for him, reliability is not
an
> issue in Armati.
>
> I have always had a problem with the concept that Hannibal told his cavalry
> to run away. This presupposes that the Socii would naturally pursue, a
> tentative strategy at best. Hannibal was never about tentativeness.
>
> Steve
> ************ **Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops â" Deals
> starting at
> $399(http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122288 3570x1201497211/
aol?redir= http:%2F% 2Faltfarm. mediaplex. com%2Fad% 2Fck%2F12309%
2D81939%2D1629% 2D0)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


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Messages in this topic (15)
1e.
Re: "Battle of Zama" scenario
Posted by: "sfp55@..." sfp55@...   steveatglobpro
Wed Jul 1, 2009 3:43 pm (PDT)



In a message dated 7/1/2009 12:39:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
ashley.solo@ yahoo.com writes:

anyone using Armati 2 lists as a start point will have them as key units,
Steve (and @ a fairly costly 10 points each, I think).

Except Ash, you aren't fighting a tourney battle. So no points needed.

Steve
************ **Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops – Deals
starting at
$399(http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122288 3570x1201497211/
aol?redir= http:%2F% 2Faltfarm. mediaplex. com%2Fad% 2Fck%2F12309%
2D81939%2D1629% 2D0)

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Messages in this topic (15)
2a.
Casualty Figures
Posted by: "Graham Bryson" bryson_graham@...   bryson_graham
Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:33 pm (PDT)


I am fairly sure Irregular will have something useful. There were recent
articles in the MAY and June 09 WSS by a painter who was doing a basic impetus
army. He had a number of casualties in his units. If you can get hold of a copy
it might give you ideas.

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Messages in this topic (7)
3a.
wort rules?????
Posted by: "glen7764" glen.brooks@...   glen7764
Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:33 pm (PDT)


Hi Chaps, any you wotr lads have any good house rules for the wotr????
would love to hear any.
thanks in advance glen


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Messages in this topic (2)
3b.
Re: wort rules?????
Posted by: "Christopher Leach" cleach@...   sausagesca
Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:56 pm (PDT)


This is what I have developed for my group borrowing from the Lance
and Longbow society and other places:

WARS OF THE ROSES
Armati II Campaign System

This campaign system is a conversion of the Wars of the Roses
campaign designed by members of the Lance and Longbow Society.
Although it includes no map moves nor logistical rules, the card
system effectively emphasizes the shifting loyalties and minor
variations in army composition reflected during these wars. Battle
losses are recorded and affect play, but ultimately this system is
designed to generate a series of reasonably balanced, meaningful
battles. The system is designed for two players playing with large,
double sized Armati II armies (Core plus 90-100 points x 2).

Campaign Cards
To play the game, print and cut out the cards below or transcribe the
information on a set of playing cards. There are a total of 18 cards
each specifying the composition of a contingent.

The pack consists of 2 Crown cards, 6 Noble cards, and 10 cards
representing various regional or mercenary contingents.

In addition to specifying the available troop types, some cards
provide additional terrain that must be placed on table by the owning
player when that card/contingent is selected for use.

Starting the Campaign
1. Each player draws one of the two Crown cards or simply agrees to
play either Yorkist or Lancastrian.

2. The remaining 16 cards are shuffled and each player is dealt 3
additional cards.

3. Each player starts the campaign with 4 cards; a player will never
have fewer than 4 cards through the course of the campaign but may
accumulate more than 4. Victory is achieved immediately when a
player holds 8 cards.

4. All the player’s cards are left face up with the remainder face
down.

5. The cards specify the composition of the army players will use to
fight their battles. As a player accumulates more cards (by winning
battles) he has more options in regards to his army composition.

6. In addition to the cards, both players always have an Armati II
double Core force.

Forces for Each Battle
1. Each player rolls a D6.

2. The winner chooses to attack a card from the opponent’s hand and
selects one of their own cards to place at risk. The opponents
‘attacked’ card is at risk too.

3. If a Crown card is attacked the attacker’s Crown card must be
placed at risk too. If Crown cards are used by either or both
players the Crown character must be represented as one of the two
commanders of the field army and is at risk.

4. Each player then chooses 3 additional cards from their hand. The
total of 4 cards and the double-Core force represent the army
available to a player for the ensuing battle. Army control ratings
are left as per the rule; they have not been doubled.

Fight the battle.

Terrain
Each army automatically may have 2 pieces of terrain: 1 woods and 1
gentle rise. In addition, each player may place two 6 inch linear
obstacles (hedges) using the terrain placement rules in Armati II.

Certain cards specify additional terrain that must be placed if the
card is used for the battle.

Players that are outnumbered due to losses suffered in previous
battles are awarded more terrain. For every 20 points (rounded down)
difference between the CARD totals, the outnumbered player is awarded
one additional piece of terrain (woods OR a gentle rise - player
choice).

All terrain is placed using the Armati II system.

Fighting Battles
The battles are fought using Armati II rules with the following
special rules:
1. Units forming a noble’s contingent may not form a division with
the units from another noble’s contingent. This represents the
distrust and rivalry felt between the nobility even on the same
side. Non-noble contingent units may be deployed as desired (e.g.
combined with a Noble’s contingent).

2. Note the special echelon rules for Wars of the Roses armies that
allow an exchange of ranks between the LB units and the bill or DMA
units deployed in echelon immediately behind the LB.

3. Optional un-official rule: Despite the high numbers of long
bowmen, Wars of the Roses battles were ultimately decided by melee.
To emphasize this further count each LB unit as 2/3 of an army BP
instead of a full 1 BP.

Treachery
The shifting allegiances so common in the period are represented in
the following rules. Treachery can be an important leveler for a
player who has lost several battles and is therefore outnumbered; of
course, treachery can affect the outnumbered player too!

1. If a player rolls a 1 on his first Initiative roll one of his
Noble contingents freezes. If a player has not fielded any nobles he
cannot be affected by treachery. All mercenary or militia units in
the same division(s) as the noble contingent are also frozen..

2. The contingent is chosen at random (die roll) and stays frozen
until either player rolls a 6 for initiative. A frozen contingent may
not move, shoot, and ignores obligatory charge rules.

3. If the opponent rolls a 6 for initiative first, the frozen
contingent is immediately removed from the table. If the owning
player rolls a 6 first, the contingent is loyal and is immediately
available for action.

4. If an opponent charges or shoots at the frozen contingent, it
immediately remains loyal and becomes activated.

5. An army BP does not change if a contingent is lost through
treachery.

Victory in Battle
Once the battle has been decided using the Armati victory conditions,
all losses are recorded in the following manner:
1. Determine the BP differential between winner and loser.
2. The defeated player loses this number of units. Randomly
determine which key units are lost and note these loses on the
appropriate contingent card. Also note the reduced point value of
the card to facilitate the application of the terrain rules.
3. The winner loses HALF the number of units of his opponent rounded
down OR the actual number of units lost in the battle, WHICH EVER IS
LESS. If the loser only loses one unit the winner loses none.
4. During the battle, it is important to note which broken units
belong to what contingent. Note that the core can attrite too.
5. Half of all non-key units Broken in battle are automatically lost
for the next battle and retrieved thereafter. This is done by type
(e.g. half skirmishers, half the LI etc.). Round UP the losses and
roll for specific types (e.g. bow and jls SI - roll to see which are
lost).
6. Note that all loses suffered by both sides affect the contingents
ONLY if that contingent is used in the next consecutive battle.
Losses from two battles ago are retrieved.

At ‘risk’ contingents:
The victor retains their ‘at risk’ card and draws another from the
deck. The victor can either keep this card or may opt to take their
opponents ‘at risk’ card as determined prior to the battle. If
the victor chooses to take the opponents card, the loser receives the
card drawn from the deck by the victor.

After the battle, the loser still retains 4 cards, but the winner
will have increased his hand by one giving him more options for the
next battle.

Subsequent Battles
The procedure is exactly the same as for the first battle except that
units fighting in two consecutive battles carry forward losses
incurred from the previous battle. Contingents allowed to ‘sit-
out’ a battle regain their original unit strength.

Campaign Victory
The campaign is over when a player:
1. Holds 8 cards in his hand
2. Captures an opponent’s Crown card
3. Kills or Captures an opponent’s Crown commander in a battle
(Richard III!)
3. Concedes defeat to his opponent

Credits: Mike Parsons and Martin Stephenson developed these rules.
They were amended for use with Armati II by the White Rock Wargamers.
Thank you to the Lance and Longbow society for posting the original
rules.

Contingent Cards:
Use 4 cards and a >double core= for each battle. Each card: 45-50
points

EDWARD IV
CROWN CARD

1 KN, 1 FT/DMA, 1 FT, 2 LB

HENRY VI
CROWN CARD

1 KN, 1 FT/DMA, 1 FT, 2 LB

NOBLE:
KING OF FRANCE

2 KN, 2 FT, 2 SI (X-BOW)

NOBLE:
HENRY PERCY
EARL OF NORTHUMBERLAND
1 FT/DMA, 2 FT, 3 LB

NOBLE:
JOHN DE VERE
EARL OF OXFORD

1 FT/DMA, 2 FT, 3 LB

NOBLE:
RICHARD NEVILLE
EARL OF WARWICK

1 KN OR 1 FT/DMA, 2 FT, 3 LB

NOBLE:
LORD THOMAS STANLEY

1 FT/DMA, 2 FT, 3 LB

NOBLE:
JOHN MOBRAY
DUKE OF NORFOLK

1 FT/DMA, 2 FT, 3 LB

ROYAL ARMOURIES

1 LT. GUN, 4 FT, 3 LB

CARLISLE MILITIA

3 FT, 1 LI, 3 LB

COVENTRY MILITIA

4 FT, 3 LB

SCOTTISH BORDERERS

6 FT (Scot 4-1-1),2 FT,
1 LC (2-0-0 VARIOUS)

FLEMISH MERCENARIES

3 FT (PIKE 6-0-0), 3 SI (Handguns), 3 FT

DUTCH GUNNERS AND PORTSMOUTH MILITIA

1 LT. GUN, 4 FT, 3 LB

CORNISH LEVY

4 FT, 3 LB

ESSEX LEVY
TERRAIN: 1 RG

3 FT, 3 LB, 3 SI(JLS)

CHESHIRE LEVY
TERRAIN: 1 WOODS

4 FT, 3 LB

WELSH LEVY
TERRAIN: 1 SH

2 LI, 2 FT, 2 LB, 2 SI(JLS), 3 SI (BOW)
FT are the standard FV5 bill units; FT/DMA are the FV6 units.
Use Armati I rules for the artillery.

Wars of the Roses (White Rock revision) CR: H:5; L:2; BP: 2; Init: 5
1‑KN (d)+ 6 [2]
0 +3 Lances
1‑FT (DMA and retinue)+ 6 [1]
1 +2 Various
2‑FT + 5
[1] 1 +1 Bills
3‑LB+ 4
[1] 1 +1 Longbows
1-Art (light) 2 [0]
0 +1 (Use Armati I)

Bonus Units: Lancastrian and Yorkist
2‑FT (DMA and retinue)+ 6 [1]
1 +2 Various (9)
4‑FT+ 5
[1] 1 +1 Bills (6)
6‑LB+ 4
[1] 1 +1 Longbows (7)
1‑LI (Welsh) 4 [1]
2 +1 Javelins (7)

Bonus Units: LancastrianCorCYork ist as indicated
4‑FT (Northern Borderers)+* 4 [1]
1 +1 Spears (4)
1‑LI (Irish)* 4 [1]
2 +1 Javelins (7)
3‑SI* 2
[1] 1 +2 Bows (2)
1‑SI (Irish)* 3 [1]
2 +2 Javelins (2)
1‑SI (French)* 2 [1]
1 +2 X‑Bows (2)
1‑FT (Germans)+** 6 [0]
0 +1 Pikes (7)
1‑SI (Germans)** 2
[1] 1 +2 Handguns (2)
DMA have a Unit BP of 3
* Lancastrian only ** Yorkist only
For Handguns, use X‑Bow rules
Core Terrain: 1W Bonus Terrain (4 Max): 3GR; 1SH; 2W

Optional Rules for WoTR Armies:
Line Relief:

A common tactic of the period was to relieve the front line of
longbow with supporting billmen or men‑at‑arms. To simulate this
tactic, players may move LB units to the rear of supporting FT or DMA
in the same echeloned Division if they did not fire this turn, are
not engaged in Melee, and:
The relieving FT or DMA unit must be deployed in depth (one section
behind another, see echelon sec. 4.1.1) directly behind, and
touching, the LB unit to be relieved. The relieving FT or DMA unit
may not be engaged in Melee. The LB unit replaces the rear section
of the supporting FT or DMA unit stand for stand, resulting in a new
formation with the LB unit to the rear of the FT or DMA unit deployed
in depth.
The LB and FT/DMA units will occupy the same space as before, no
change in the position of the division or further movement is allowed.
See Option 7 below for an alternative result related to the line
relief rule.

Other options:
1. Use cavalry (KN) only from the core and in a double game must
operate together
2. DMA is not a good unit type. DMA would have been among the bill
units
and this would have resulted in simply better FT units. So, replace DMA
with FT (FV6). The advantage here is that they take 4 hits as
opposed to 3 and due to the heavier armour, their protection is +2.
( this option is already reflected in the list above)
3. Bow and bill units MUST be deployed together (in column 'echelon');
only excess bow OR excess bill can be deployed in separate bodies.
4. Artillery: allow a single light piece in the core for each side
using previous Armati I shooting rules.
5. By agreement, core terrain could include a 6 inch section of hedge/
linear obstacle
6. Command points: use the single sized command ratings even for
double sized game – feels more medieval.
7. LB units: if they use the line relief move, simply remove them
with no BP loss. The line relief rule is meant to represent the
change of mode that the infantry body is adopting; when the shooting
stops the archers become part of the melee infantry. In the normal
rules the archer unit becomes a strange second line that gets to
shoot when the bill/DMA unit is Broken. This was necessary in the
basic rules, but constitutes a peculiarity in terms of representation.

On 1-Jul-09, at 11:28 AM, glen7764 wrote:

>
>
> Hi Chaps, any you wotr lads have any good house rules for the wotr????
> would love to hear any.
> thanks in advance glen
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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