--- And it quite works on the table too Chris
happy New Year!
Roy


In ARMATI@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Leach <cleach@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for doing this Rodger. Lots of work here.
>
> I seem to have missed this proposal in the flurry:
> Rear Attacks
> Rear attacks occur when the attacker starts from entirely behind a
> line drawn from the front edge of the target. This is irrespective
of
> the point of contact i.e. rear line, rear corner or flank edge.
> Rear attack by Heavy Units
> Denies Impetus, Bracing lost and causes the Target to fight with its
> Flank/Rear FV. Target is automatically broken if outscored in melee
> by any heavy enemy.
> Rear attack by Light Units (SI, LI, LHI, LC, L2CH, LB)
> Bracing lost, Target fights rear attacking Unit with Flank/Rear FV,
> but Target fights to the front with Frontal FV-1 Vs all other in
> contact that may not claim rear attacks.
> If outscored by a Unit with Impetus the target is automatically
> broken.
>
> Flank Attacks
> If Rear attacks conditions do not apply, Flank Attacks occur when
the
> attacker hits the flank of the target (i.e. any charge that starts
> with any part of the charging Unit in front of a line drawn from the
> front edge of the Target that contacts the Target's flank).
> Flank attacks by all Units
> Target keeps it's braced status if applicable and uses its front
> value, with a -1 modifier, against all opponents not able to claim
> rear attacks.
>
> Any other attack is a Frontal attack.
>
> Note (multiple attacks): If a heavy attacker qualifies for the Rear
> attack, then the "attacked by heavy" specifications apply and
> supersede other conditions
>
>
>
> I quite like this....I think : )
>
>
>
> Happy New Year.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3-Jan-09, at 4:56 AM, rodger1uk wrote:
>
> > Happy New Year to all.
> > After 3 month play testing and discussion here is an overview of
> > where I believe we are at.
> > The things that need work are evident.
> > May I suggest that new threads are started for each variant that
> > needs work:
> >
> > 1) Core + 100 points
> > Change rule 14.1 Bonus Unit Procedure from 75 points to 100 points
> > >Seems to have been adopted.
> >
> > 2) No deep except LC
> > Change rule 2.2 to:
> > `Heavy Infantry must form two sections wide.'
> >
> > 7.9.3 `Heavy Infantry in Depth (counter to Impetus)'(p24)
> > Delete this rule
> >
> > 7.8.6 `Shield Walls and Schiltrons' (p23)
> > Shield Wall
> > Change `A Shield Wall may be Deployed wide or in Depth' to `A
Shield
> > Wall may only be deployed Wide'.
> > Shiltron
> > Change `A Schiltron must be deployed in Depth' to' A Schiltron
must
> > be formed in Echelon' to qualify for Shiltron status.
> >
> > All other current 7.8.6. rules remain unchanged.
> >
> > Swiss Keils
> > Phase 2.
> >
> > >Seems to be adopted but some debate on whether all WB should be
wide
> > (see RV9 `Echelon' below for wide WB Vs Mounted). Schiltron and
Keil
> > to be looked at Phase 2.
> >
> > 3) `Bracing' (stationary HI counter Impetus Vs all)
> > An unengaged HI unit that remains stationary may claim to "brace"
> > itself.
> > A braced unit receives 3 BPs when outscored frontally by a troop
with
> > Impetus instead of being broken.
> >
> > A Unit may not count as braced if either:
> > 1. it is un-dressed
> > or
> > 2. it is contacted by enemy to its Flank/Rear (as defined in RV12)
> > or
> > 3. it may claim impetus against its opponent
> >
> > Note 1: A unit that is braced when starting a melee keeps that
status
> > until it moves or is contacted in flank/rear (as defined in Rules
12a
> > or 12b)
> > Note 2: If fighting both against a WB and a HC, a WB Unit will be
able
> > to claim being braced against the HC (provided all other
conditions
> > are satisfied) but not against the enemy WB.
> > Note 3: BP3 WB may claim bracing (but, unless they are veteran, it
> > will not change much the result if they lose their first round of
> > melee against impetus troops).
> > Note 4: Players may find it useful to use a marker next to unit
which
> > remain stationary and therefore claim "bracing".
> >
> > >Seems to have been adopted.
> >
> > 4) Removal of Phalanx (PH) from Rule 7.9.2 `Denying Impetus-
> > Stationary from a Previous Phase: Shield Walls, Schiltrons and
> > Phalanxes. `
> > PH do not now deny Impetus. Delete rule 7.9.1.6 Loss of Impetus
(PH)
> > Also delete rule Number 6 from rule 7.9.1 `Loss of Impetus'
> > Note; all PH are therefore -1 pnt.
> >
> > >Some dispute, although with high FV and `Bracing' I for one
cannot
> > see why.
> >
> > 5) Stationary
> > `Stationary' may be claimed if the unit did not move in its last
> > movement phase.
> >
> > 7.8.2 Terrain advantage
> > Change
> > `The defending unit must be infantry (of any type) and must remain
> > stationary during its current movement phase in order to receive
the
> > +1'
> > to
> > `The defending unit must be infantry (of any type) and must remain
> > stationary during its last movement phase in order to receive the
+1'
> >
> > >Seems to have been adopted.
> >
> > 6) Cavalry Vs Heavier Cavalry Break Off
> > All cavalry are allowed to break off if fighting heavier weight
class
> > of cavalry where
> > CATs, KN, Clibs, MA and H4CH are the heaviest class
> > HC, M2CH the medium class
> > LH CM and L2CH are the lightest class.
> >
> > Elephants may not break off from any, but Mounted may break off
from
> > them.
> >
> > All roll 1D6 to get break off (distance, interpenetration BP
> > infliction and enemy blocking as current rules)
> > 1: Break
> > 2,3: No break off
> > 4,5,6: may break off
> > Note 1: Cavalry that break off are permitted to charge in again
> > Note 2: Usual rules for obligatory chargers and impetus apply.
> >
> > Break-off direction is
> > 1) directly to the unit rear if the enemy contact is on front
edge or
> > front corner,
> > 2) directly to the unit front if the enemy contact is on rear
edge or
> > rear corner,
> > 3) directly to the unit opposed flank if the enemy contact is on
> > flank edge.
> >
> > Break-off is impossible:
> > 1) if the unit is contacted by several enemy units which would
> > result in different break-off directions, or
> > 2) if it inflicted BP or
> > 3) if it broke an opponent.
> >
> > Break-Off Conditions (p26, para 1)
> > The choice to attempt a Break-Off is made by the owning player.
Break
> > -Off's may occur only when a unit is in melee contact against
enemy
> > infantry
> > or against heavier cavalry as outlined above
> >
> > Breakthrough
> > P28 para 3,'Participating Units':
> > 'A non engaged unit is entitled to a breakthrough maneuver if at
> > least one enemy unit it was in contact with that turn Broke'
> >
> > Note: Breakthroughs are resolved after break-off.
> >
> > >Hardly any feedback on RV6; do we continue with it?
> >
> > 7) Double Frontage SI
> > Change the unit size picture and figure basing so that Skirmishers
> > are two
> > sections wide and at current depth with no other change to lists
or
> > points
> >
> > >Mixed reactions.
> > General consensus that SI are too powerful and too manoeureable
on a
> > 1 base frontage.
> > Other thoughts are:
> > a) drastically reduce SI in all armies (difficult to reduce
numbers
> > of SI because that requires actions on many armies, some of which
> > have SI as a key troop type and need large numbers so a blanket
> > halving of all SI won't work)
> > b) penalise fire further and keep SI as single bases (-1: 0-9", -
> > 2:9"+-24"),
> > c) make SI hits Fatigue Hits and
> > d) curb SI maneuver (no suggestion as to how).
> >
> > 8) Double Frontage LI and LHI
> > Expansion of LI and LHI into two sections with no other change to
> > lists or points
> >
> > >Much ink spilt.
> > Seems to be coming down on the side of single frontage and
> > a) all LHI key
> > b) all LI low FV (most 2, some 3) and may act as SI in maneuver
and
> > c) huge reduction of the troops types in the lists that are
> > not `light' armies OR
> > d) LHI disappear and may be fielded as either Key COH or FT, or
non
> > key 2 LI (Fv3 or 2). This (i.e `d') needs a lot more debate; it
may
> > well work for late Romans etc but probably does not in other
periods
> > and how does it translate to light armies?
> >
> > 9) Echelon
> > HI/COH/FT etc may still deploy in Echelon but there are no
benefits
> > to it except for current Roman and Carthaginian tactics.
> > Therefore 'modifies the effects of Impetus as if it were Deployed
in
> > Depth' in respect to p6 `Echelon Divisional Unit Arrangement'
> > paragraph 4 which begins `A HI Unit in a Block Deployment..' is
> > deleted.
> > With the exception of 2) and 11) all other rules on Echelon remain
> > the same.
> >
> > >Seems fine.
> > There has been an additional idea playetested where WB are be
allowed
> > to deploy in echelon and, if stationary, they may brace against
> > cavalry (this worked well in a Rugi Vs Odovacer game).
> >
> > 10) Rear firing
> > Add rule 5.13 `any HI or heavy mounted unit receiving fire from a
unit
> > entirely behind the rear line of the unit subtracts 1 from its
PROT
> > value against that fire to simulate the `demoralising morale
effect.'
> >
> > >Hardly any feedback on this; do we continue with it?
> >
> > 11) SI 'Divisional Echelon (Block) Tactics' Restrictions
> > Delete 6.2.2
> >
> > >General agreement on this.
> >
> > 12) Warband 2D6 Impetus Rolls
> > Warband roll 2D6's on first round of melee with opponents they may
> > claim impetus against and choose the best D6 roll for melee
> > calculation.
> >
> > >General agreement on this but debate on whether deep WB should
get
> > it.
> >
> > 13a) Flank/Rear Attacks
> > Change 7.10 to read `Flank Rear Attacks'. Include 7.10.1, 7.10.2.
> > 7.10.3 and rename them to `Flank/Rear Attacks'. Change paras to
read:
> >
> > Flank/Rear Attacks:
> > A flank/rear attack shall be defined as an attack which
> > * either contacts the defender's rear line with the chargers front
> > line or front corner
> > * or contacts the defender's rear corner AND has part of the
> > charges front line across BOTH the defenders rear and flank lines.
> >
> > All other attacks shall be deemed frontal.
> >
> > NOTE: 7.9.1 Loss of Impetus (p23) point 1 and
7.10.1 "consequences of
> > being flanked" should be read with the new definition of
Flank/Rear
> > as described above in mind.
> >
> > 13b) Flank/Rear Attacks
> > A flank/rear attack shall be defined as an attack which start, or
> > finish, its charge with its front at least partly behind a line
> > projecting at 45° from the rear corner of the front section of the
> > target
> > All other attacks shall be deemed frontal.
> > .
> > NOTE 1: 7.9.1 Loss of Impetus (p23) point 1
and7.10.1 "consequences
> > of being flanked" should be read with the new definition of
> > Flank/Rear as described above in mind.
> >
> > > Difference of opinion and revisions: a) found to be unsuitable
due
> > to rear/flank attack anomaly, b) found to be unsuitable due to
> > complexity and ability to perform a devastating attack from a
> > position in front of the target. A further idea has been tested
and
> > has received some support:
> >
> > Rear Attacks
> > Rear attacks occur when the attacker starts from entirely behind a
> > line drawn from the front edge of the target. This is
irrespective of
> > the point of contact i.e. rear line, rear corner or flank edge.
> > Rear attack by Heavy Units
> > Denies Impetus, Bracing lost and causes the Target to fight with
its
> > Flank/Rear FV. Target is automatically broken if outscored in
melee
> > by any heavy enemy.
> > Rear attack by Light Units (SI, LI, LHI, LC, L2CH, LB)
> > Bracing lost, Target fights rear attacking Unit with Flank/Rear
FV,
> > but Target fights to the front with Frontal FV-1 Vs all other in
> > contact that may not claim rear attacks.
> > If outscored by a Unit with Impetus the target is automatically
> > broken.
> >
> > Flank Attacks
> > If Rear attacks conditions do not apply, Flank Attacks occur when
the
> > attacker hits the flank of the target (i.e. any charge that starts
> > with any part of the charging Unit in front of a line drawn from
the
> > front edge of the Target that contacts the Target's flank).
> > Flank attacks by all Units
> > Target keeps it's braced status if applicable and uses its front
> > value, with a -1 modifier, against all opponents not able to claim
> > rear attacks.
> >
> > Any other attack is a Frontal attack.
> >
> > Note (multiple attacks): If a heavy attacker qualifies for the
Rear
> > attack, then the "attacked by heavy" specifications apply and
> > supersede other conditions
> >
> > 14a) Morale Rout test
> > Change 8.1 to define rout path (3") direction as follows:
> > * To the front if enemy contact is on rear edge
> > * To the opposite flank if enemy contact is on rear corner only
> > * To the rear otherwise
> > NOTE: A Fail on the Rout die is as A2 i.e. a Break
> >
> > >Accepted by those that want simplicity.
> >
> > 14b) Morale Rout Test
> > 1. All units touching a massed unit that breaks check regardless
of
> > direction.
> > 2. Any unit (except if alone in its own division) in the rout path
> > (straight back to own table edge) is considered as blocking the
massed
> > units' path to the base line, therefore is burst through and must
> > check.
> > 3. Light units do not cause heavy units to check, but heavy units
> > cause ALL units to check.
> >
> > Procedure:
> > A d6 roll of a "1" causes 1 BP to be applied to the testing unit,
if
> > heavy infantry.
> > A d6 roll of "1-2" causes 1 BP to be applied to the testing unit,
if
> > other type.
> > A unit with a General in base contact adds +1 to the d6 roll.
> >
> > If BP loss causes a testing unit to break, it does so, and its
rout
> > path traced back to its baseline. All additional tests caused by
this
> > break are now carried out.
> >
> > NOTE:
> > 1) 12b Flank/Rear Attack may be tested with 13a Rout/Morale Test
> > 2) 12a Flank/Rear Attack may be tested with 13b Rout/Morale Test
> >
> > >Accepted by those that want more flavour.
> >
> > Phase 2 (not yet revised or added to in 2009)
> > This will include
> > 1) anything that is thrown up by Phase 1 Testing
> > 2) Specific Troops Type (PH, CATs LB, Schiltrons, Kiels etc).
> > 3) Generals, sub-Generals.
> > 4) Increase of terrain templates for `light' armies
> > 5) -2 over ½ range (and -1 under ½ range?) for single base SI
> > 6) Infliction of Fatigue by SI missiles (until a target is fully
> > fatigued where missile hits then inflict casualties)
> > 7) Increase CR to include SI Divisions
> > 8) Impetus support for Missile Troops
> > 9) Status of LHI/LI as Key troops.
> > 10) Impact on Antiquites/AoE of Phase 1 Rule Variant 7
> > 11) Double sized terrain for Light Armies
> > 12) PROT increase for Units in Shield Wall
> > 13) LC Jav
> > 14) Anything else.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Rodge
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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