Brent Carter asked:
> I have another 18GA question. 1830 forbids placing two tokens of the same
> color on any tile or hexagon. Is this rule intended to apply in 18GA?
> Specifically, are you forbidden to place more than one token of the same
> color on the Atlanta tile?

That's right.  The rules for laying tiles and tokens in 18GA are pretty much
exactly the same as in 1830.

In looking this up I noticed one exception:  Rule 3.3 points out that when
the yellow Atlanta tile (#451) is placed, the player laying the tile must
immediately decide which station will be the home of the W&A.  The old tile
had a preprinted "W&A" on one of the spaces, but the new ones do not, since
I designed them to have you put round white stickers on the city circles
before playing.  So I'm putting this in as a new clarification:  you need
to write "W&A" in the bottom city circle (the one nearest the tile number)
on all three Atlanta tiles after the stickers go on the tiles.

I'm copying the 18xx mailing list to spread the word, and will update the
clarifications on the web site as well.

Regards,
John

I am moving back to alaska.  I would like to find 18xx players in the
Juneau area
  E mail me at hunthewumpus@...

Gentlemen,

Are there any graphical artists in this newsgroup that would have
serious interest in doing bitmap images for a computerized 18XX
engine?  I've begun work on one, and am at the stage of needing hex
bitmaps for track tiles and base map images.  Although I have been
slogging my way through using Visio to do the images with, I find it
rather time-consuming (and not my forte by any means).

I'll be frank - I don't expect to make much money (if any at all) on
this when it's done, so any interested parties should realize that
this is strictly a labor of love.  I will discuss royalties, but no
up front payments (I'm not seeing a dime for doing the programming
work myself).

On the upside, when I'm finished, the 18XX community will have a
program that will allow us to play head-to-head via the internet(!),
something I've been wanting to do for a long time.

Most Sincerely,

-Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)

Are you talking about a .bmp extension on a tile image
file?

Tom

--- ganraeln <ganraeln@...> wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> Are there any graphical artists in this newsgroup
> that would have
> serious interest in doing bitmap images for a
> computerized 18XX
> engine?  I've begun work on one, and am at the stage
> of needing hex
> bitmaps for track tiles and base map images.
> Although I have been
> slogging my way through using Visio to do the images
> with, I find it
> rather time-consuming (and not my forte by any
> means).
>
> I'll be frank - I don't expect to make much money
> (if any at all) on
> this when it's done, so any interested parties
> should realize that
> this is strictly a labor of love.  I will discuss
> royalties, but no
> up front payments (I'm not seeing a dime for doing
> the programming
> work myself).
>
> On the upside, when I'm finished, the 18XX community
> will have a
> program that will allow us to play head-to-head via
> the internet(!),
> something I've been wanting to do for a long time.
>
> Most Sincerely,
>
> -Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


=====
After 17 years I finally got a new job.
http://www.monitorsdirect.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:42:17 -0000, "ganraeln" <ganraeln@...>
wrote:

>Gentlemen,
>
>Are there any graphical artists in this newsgroup that would have
>serious interest in doing bitmap images for a computerized 18XX
>engine?  I've begun work on one, and am at the stage of needing hex
>bitmaps for track tiles and base map images.  Although I have been
>slogging my way through using Visio to do the images with, I find it
>rather time-consuming (and not my forte by any means).
>
>I'll be frank - I don't expect to make much money (if any at all) on
>this when it's done, so any interested parties should realize that
>this is strictly a labor of love.  I will discuss royalties, but no
>up front payments (I'm not seeing a dime for doing the programming
>work myself).
>
>On the upside, when I'm finished, the 18XX community will have a
>program that will allow us to play head-to-head via the internet(!),
>something I've been wanting to do for a long time.

I don't know exactly how far you've taken this... did you have a look
at the 18xx-softdev yahoogroup?

Anyway, if the scope of your project is to play, I suspect you don't
want anything like the 1830 PC tiles (which are IMHO horrible).  Did
you look at the TileDesigner and the tile dictionaries I have uploaded
on my site:
   http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/mrocci/rails18xx/index.html

I haven't been able to proceed much on the moderator, but tile
graphics was just about final... IIRC Chris, Steve and others on this
list seemed to be satisfied enough of the results.  Anyway the tile
graphics should be good enough to use for on-line (or off-line)
play... but not perfect enough for print.

If you're interested, then we can talk about it on the 18xx-softdev
group.  The app uses bitmaps in memory and dumps to gif during HTML
generation... but I could enhance it to produce other formats (bmp,
png, etc...).  I have also worked on map generation... but I have had
problems handling big bitmaps in Delphi 3.  I use Delphi 6 now...
maybe Borland fixed the bitmap bugs... or maybe I could use some third
party comps to fix it.

Regards,

--
Marco Rocci
MicroEra srl
Turin, Italy
-----------------
vota contro lo SPAM su: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/

I've not used them, but Scalable Vector Graphics might give the fastest
Internet performance.
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Overview.htm8

Noel

Drawing tiles in Visio?, use the right tool for the job Tile Designer:
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/mrocci/rails18xx/index.html
It will generate .GIF files for any tile you can draw.
And you don't draw them, it is object oriented so you are just
describe thier attributes, many of the standard tiles are already
there.


--- In 18xx@y..., "ganraeln" <ganraeln@y...> wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> Are there any graphical artists in this newsgroup that would have
> serious interest in doing bitmap images for a computerized 18XX
> engine?  I've begun work on one, and am at the stage of needing hex
> bitmaps for track tiles.

It is a good thing you are not expecting to make any
money doing this, because you won't.  Nothing
personal, but there just isn't much market for 18xx
games, on the computer or off.  Also, you have Hasbro
and possible copyright issues with which to concern
yourself, if you decide to try and sell this product.
However, I appreciate your effort and I am looking
forward to trying out whatever you put together.

RB

--- ganraeln <ganraeln@...> wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> Are there any graphical artists in this newsgroup
> that would have
> serious interest in doing bitmap images for a
> computerized 18XX
> engine?  I've begun work on one, and am at the stage
> of needing hex
> bitmaps for track tiles and base map images.
> Although I have been
> slogging my way through using Visio to do the images
> with, I find it
> rather time-consuming (and not my forte by any
> means).
>
> I'll be frank - I don't expect to make much money
> (if any at all) on
> this when it's done, so any interested parties
> should realize that
> this is strictly a labor of love.  I will discuss
> royalties, but no
> up front payments (I'm not seeing a dime for doing
> the programming
> work myself).
>
> On the upside, when I'm finished, the 18XX community
> will have a
> program that will allow us to play head-to-head via
> the internet(!),
> something I've been wanting to do for a long time.
>
> Most Sincerely,
>
> -Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

--- In 18xx@y..., Tom M <starfury_42@y...> wrote:
> Are you talking about a .bmp extension on a tile image
> file?
>
> Tom

Yes, I am talking about .bmp files.  I need the tile images in
exacting images, and in specific positions within the bitmap file
(think Civ2 or Civ3 image files, just .bmp instead of .pcx).  I'll be
happy to show any interested parties my template file that they can
use to do the work.

-Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)

>
> I don't know exactly how far you've taken this... did you have a
look
> at the 18xx-softdev yahoogroup?
>

I have read some of the postings in the softdev group, and quite
honestly, I am not interested in programming by committee.  I have
already written a fully functional computer game (another board game
that I cannot disclose due to contract negotiations with the board
game publisher), so I have the framework already in place for
multiplayer capabilities and GUI using DirectX.  I have only to do
the specific programming and artwork for the ruleset of the 18XX game
I want to do first.  I'll add the ability to customize the engine for
other 18XX games after I get ONE of them working.


> Anyway, if the scope of your project is to play, I suspect you don't
> want anything like the 1830 PC tiles (which are IMHO horrible).  Did
> you look at the TileDesigner and the tile dictionaries I have
uploaded
> on my site:
>   http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/mrocci/rails18xx/index.html
>
> I haven't been able to proceed much on the moderator, but tile
> graphics was just about final... IIRC Chris, Steve and others on
this
> list seemed to be satisfied enough of the results.  Anyway the tile
> graphics should be good enough to use for on-line (or off-line)
> play... but not perfect enough for print.
>
> If you're interested, then we can talk about it on the 18xx-softdev
> group.  The app uses bitmaps in memory and dumps to gif during HTML
> generation... but I could enhance it to produce other formats (bmp,
> png, etc...).  I have also worked on map generation... but I have
had
> problems handling big bitmaps in Delphi 3.  I use Delphi 6 now...
> maybe Borland fixed the bitmap bugs... or maybe I could use some
third
> party comps to fix it.
>

I'll take the discussion to the softdev group tonight when I've had
the chance to look at your tile generator.

-Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)

This is not going to be a web-enabled game engine.... I'm talking
DirectX full-screen environment, akin to most commercially published
games.

-Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)

--- In 18xx@y..., "Leaver, Noel" <noel.leaver@m...> wrote:
> I've not used them, but Scalable Vector Graphics might give the
fastest
> Internet performance.
> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Overview.htm8
>
> Noel

>It is a good thing you are not expecting to make any
money doing this, because you won't.

You might do OK by demanding a monthly payment not to publish it from
people like me who can see themselves wasting far too much time once an
18xx internet game is available!

Presumably it would double as a pay aid to keep track of cash in a
standard game?

One of the biggest benefits for a play aid would be in calculating
revenues in certain 18xx games where routes/trains become very complex
by the end. Are you intending including this?

Noel

Thanks, coach =)  I am well aware of the issues I raise by doing
this...  I've already done another computerized board game, and am
negotiating with the manufacturer to commercially produce it.

-Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)

--- In 18xx@y..., robin barbehenn <rbarbehenn@y...> wrote:
> It is a good thing you are not expecting to make any
> money doing this, because you won't.  Nothing
> personal, but there just isn't much market for 18xx
> games, on the computer or off.  Also, you have Hasbro
> and possible copyright issues with which to concern
> yourself, if you decide to try and sell this product.
> However, I appreciate your effort and I am looking
> forward to trying out whatever you put together.
>
> RB
>
> --- ganraeln <ganraeln@y...> wrote:
> > Gentlemen,
> >
> > Are there any graphical artists in this newsgroup
> > that would have
> > serious interest in doing bitmap images for a
> > computerized 18XX
> > engine?  I've begun work on one, and am at the stage
> > of needing hex
> > bitmaps for track tiles and base map images.
> > Although I have been
> > slogging my way through using Visio to do the images
> > with, I find it
> > rather time-consuming (and not my forte by any
> > means).
> >
> > I'll be frank - I don't expect to make much money
> > (if any at all) on
> > this when it's done, so any interested parties
> > should realize that
> > this is strictly a labor of love.  I will discuss
> > royalties, but no
> > up front payments (I'm not seeing a dime for doing
> > the programming
> > work myself).
> >
> > On the upside, when I'm finished, the 18XX community
> > will have a
> > program that will allow us to play head-to-head via
> > the internet(!),
> > something I've been wanting to do for a long time.
> >
> > Most Sincerely,
> >
> > -Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

> You might do OK by demanding a monthly payment not to publish it
from
> people like me who can see themselves wasting far too much time
once an
> 18xx internet game is available!

LOL, I like that idea =)

>
> Presumably it would double as a pay aid to keep track of cash in a
> standard game?
>

By default, yes, although I need to keep it to a single 18XX game at
first.  Gotta follow (K.I.S.S.) or I'll never get anything done.
What I'm shooting for is a game engine that will keep track of
everything, allowing you to play via the internet, lan or hotseat.
NO AI!!!!

> One of the biggest benefits for a play aid would be in calculating
> revenues in certain 18xx games where routes/trains become very
complex
> by the end. Are you intending including this?
>

Yes, eventually, although it won't be in the initial version.  There
will be a mechanism for the player to trace his route(s).

-Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)

hi,
what I really appreciate in PC-based 1830 game is the automatically calculated
best route for your train.
It's definitively boring for the president and other players (particularly if
not shareholders) wasting your brain to figure out the best dividend...and after
found it +10$ than the one calculated initially.
Revenue chart, available in most gamekits is helpful but not definitive in games
showing complex and convoluted tracks lines in the end part of the game (1856,
1870 IMO)

It would be great to have a stand-alone SW game aid able to do it, eventually
used together with Clemens moderator. I would plan working on it if I had the
necessary SW skills.
But for your project, particularlly when playing via internet, I would strongly
suggest to include it.

regards, Alessandro

-----Original Message-----
From: ganraeln [mailto:ganraeln@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 4:07 PM
To: 18xx@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [18xx] Re: Artists for 18XX computer game?


> You might do OK by demanding a monthly payment not to publish it
from
> people like me who can see themselves wasting far too much time
once an
> 18xx internet game is available!

LOL, I like that idea =)

>
> Presumably it would double as a pay aid to keep track of cash in a
> standard game?
>

By default, yes, although I need to keep it to a single 18XX game at
first.  Gotta follow (K.I.S.S.) or I'll never get anything done.
What I'm shooting for is a game engine that will keep track of
everything, allowing you to play via the internet, lan or hotseat.
NO AI!!!!

> One of the biggest benefits for a play aid would be in calculating
> revenues in certain 18xx games where routes/trains become very
complex
> by the end. Are you intending including this?
>

Yes, eventually, although it won't be in the initial version.  There
will be a mechanism for the player to trace his route(s).

-Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)




Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

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This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! 
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.

I hope you succeed.  Hasbro is notoriously insular
about their designs.  They are a particularly
litigious bunch as well.  Not such a great combination
for freelance designers.

RB


--- ganraeln <ganraeln@...> wrote:
> Thanks, coach =)  I am well aware of the issues I
> raise by doing
> this...  I've already done another computerized
> board game, and am
> negotiating with the manufacturer to commercially
> produce it.
>
> -Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)
>
> --- In 18xx@y..., robin barbehenn <rbarbehenn@y...>
> wrote:
> > It is a good thing you are not expecting to make
> any
> > money doing this, because you won't.  Nothing
> > personal, but there just isn't much market for
> 18xx
> > games, on the computer or off.  Also, you have
> Hasbro
> > and possible copyright issues with which to
> concern
> > yourself, if you decide to try and sell this
> product.
> > However, I appreciate your effort and I am looking
> > forward to trying out whatever you put together.
> >
> > RB
> >
> > --- ganraeln <ganraeln@y...> wrote:
> > > Gentlemen,
> > >
> > > Are there any graphical artists in this
> newsgroup
> > > that would have
> > > serious interest in doing bitmap images for a
> > > computerized 18XX
> > > engine?  I've begun work on one, and am at the
> stage
> > > of needing hex
> > > bitmaps for track tiles and base map images.
> > > Although I have been
> > > slogging my way through using Visio to do the
> images
> > > with, I find it
> > > rather time-consuming (and not my forte by any
> > > means).
> > >
> > > I'll be frank - I don't expect to make much
> money
> > > (if any at all) on
> > > this when it's done, so any interested parties
> > > should realize that
> > > this is strictly a labor of love.  I will
> discuss
> > > royalties, but no
> > > up front payments (I'm not seeing a dime for
> doing
> > > the programming
> > > work myself).
> > >
> > > On the upside, when I'm finished, the 18XX
> community
> > > will have a
> > > program that will allow us to play head-to-head
> via
> > > the internet(!),
> > > something I've been wanting to do for a long
> time.
> > >
> > > Most Sincerely,
> > >
> > > -Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >
> > > This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> > http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Why not create a .bmp of each tile you'll need, then
have the program rotate it for placement?  That's how
1830 did it.

Tom

--- ganraeln <ganraeln@...> wrote:
> --- In 18xx@y..., Tom M <starfury_42@y...> wrote:
> > Are you talking about a .bmp extension on a tile
> image
> > file?
> >
> > Tom
>
> Yes, I am talking about .bmp files.  I need the tile
> images in
> exacting images, and in specific positions within
> the bitmap file
> (think Civ2 or Civ3 image files, just .bmp instead
> of .pcx).  I'll be
> happy to show any interested parties my template
> file that they can
> use to do the work.
>
> -Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


=====
After 17 years I finally got a new job.
http://www.monitorsdirect.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Tom,

I have no wish to write code to do image rotations, so I'm going to
create (or someone with the interest can do it) a .bmp file for each
tile that has that tile in each of its six orientations.  I applaud
the 1830 programmers for doing the rotation code, but I'm looking to
make the code-work as easy as possible (for me) to do.

-Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)


--- In 18xx@y..., Tom M <starfury_42@y...> wrote:
> Why not create a .bmp of each tile you'll need, then
> have the program rotate it for placement?  That's how
> 1830 did it.
>
> Tom
>
> --- ganraeln <ganraeln@y...> wrote:
> > --- In 18xx@y..., Tom M <starfury_42@y...> wrote:
> > > Are you talking about a .bmp extension on a tile
> > image
> > > file?
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > Yes, I am talking about .bmp files.  I need the tile
> > images in
> > exacting images, and in specific positions within
> > the bitmap file
> > (think Civ2 or Civ3 image files, just .bmp instead
> > of .pcx).  I'll be
> > happy to show any interested parties my template
> > file that they can
> > use to do the work.
> >
> > -Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> After 17 years I finally got a new job.
> http://www.monitorsdirect.com
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:57:25 -0000, "ganraeln" <ganraeln@...>
wrote:

>> I don't know exactly how far you've taken this... did you have a
>look
>> at the 18xx-softdev yahoogroup?
>>
>
>I have read some of the postings in the softdev group, and quite
>honestly, I am not interested in programming by committee.

Actually this effort is (IMHO) to be considered dead (and I wasn't
trying to involve you in it).  But the yahoogroup still comes in handy
if we want or need to talk about 18xx software development without
annoying those subscribers here that are just interested in *playing*.

>I have
>already written a fully functional computer game (another board game
>that I cannot disclose due to contract negotiations with the board
>game publisher), so I have the framework already in place for
>multiplayer capabilities and GUI using DirectX.  I have only to do
>the specific programming and artwork for the ruleset of the 18XX game
>I want to do first.

Doesn't that "only" scare you a bit? <g>

>I'll add the ability to customize the engine for
>other 18XX games after I get ONE of them working.

That sounds reasonable.  What criteria are you using to decide from
which 18xx game to start?

<snip>

>I'll take the discussion to the softdev group tonight when I've had
>the chance to look at your tile generator.

Ok.

Regards,

--
Marco Rocci
MicroEra srl
Turin, Italy
-----------------
vota contro lo SPAM su: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/

These are narrow track examples with small stations as jpeg.

bmp would be too large (1.9MB).

Michael

I've done some coding, and understand doing it the way
that is easiest for the programmer.

Tom

--- ganraeln <ganraeln@...> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I have no wish to write code to do image rotations,
> so I'm going to
> create (or someone with the interest can do it) a
> .bmp file for each
> tile that has that tile in each of its six
> orientations.  I applaud
> the 1830 programmers for doing the rotation code,
> but I'm looking to
> make the code-work as easy as possible (for me) to
> do.
>
> -Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)
>
>
> --- In 18xx@y..., Tom M <starfury_42@y...> wrote:
> > Why not create a .bmp of each tile you'll need,
> then
> > have the program rotate it for placement?  That's
> how
> > 1830 did it.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > --- ganraeln <ganraeln@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In 18xx@y..., Tom M <starfury_42@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > Are you talking about a .bmp extension on a
> tile
> > > image
> > > > file?
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > >
> > > Yes, I am talking about .bmp files.  I need the
> tile
> > > images in
> > > exacting images, and in specific positions
> within
> > > the bitmap file
> > > (think Civ2 or Civ3 image files, just .bmp
> instead
> > > of .pcx).  I'll be
> > > happy to show any interested parties my template
> > > file that they can
> > > use to do the work.
> > >
> > > -Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> > >
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> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > After 17 years I finally got a new job.
> > http://www.monitorsdirect.com
> >
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>
>
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robin barbehenn wrote:
> I hope you succeed.  Hasbro is notoriously insular
> about their designs.  They are a particularly
> litigious bunch as well.  Not such a great combination
> for freelance designers.

Does Hasbro still have the rights?  ISTR they sold the computer rights to
all Avalon Hill games to infogrames.com.

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, ganraeln wrote:
> I have read some of the postings in the softdev group, and quite
> honestly, I am not interested in programming by committee.
Thats the reason we got nowhere...

Somebody already started somethig in Delpi a while ago, but I don't know
what the current state is.

In case you want some ideas, here's what I thought about tiles:

do them in SVG. Java and Qt can display SVG. It's got the advantage of
arbitrary scalability.

The discussion on 18xx-softdev was mainly about
1) what language to use
2) how configurable it should be
3) if Windows-only is acceptable.

If you get somewhere I'd be interested in it.

--
Gregor Zeitlinger
gregor@...

Sorry  for the  following  tech  talk...   since I think   it is quite
important (and the 18xx-softdev list seems to  be more or less dead at
the moment)  I could   not  resist to post  this.   Non-coders, please
ignore!

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:57:25 -0000, "ganraeln" <ganraeln@...>
wrote:

>I have
>already written a fully functional computer game (another board game
>that I cannot disclose due to contract negotiations with the board
>game publisher), so I have the framework already in place for
>multiplayer capabilities and GUI using DirectX.

I am afraid,  I am just the "voice   of one crying in  the wilderness"
(and in this case it seems already to be too late), but nevertheless:

Please, please, think of the issue of portability _before_ starting to
code. It's again and again scaring how many  programmers don't do this
and naively use APIs of the one company dominating the PC software and
OS  market.  Portability  does not  necessarily mean  Java, and  it is
usually    not  a great    problem   if it is    considered   from the
beginning. But once you have coded a lot using  MFC, DirectX etc., you
are caught. You are  in complete dependency of  a single company.  And
this company tries to ensure this dependency by making your program as
incompatible as possible with the rest of  the computer world and make
it as difficult as  possible for you to   port your software  to other
platforms.

You may argue that this incompatibility with  the rest of the world is
not as bad  as  it sounds because this   rest comprises only about  5%
(considering only desktop PCs).

But actually it is bad, very bad:

- You are forcing all users of your software to  use only one specific
platform,  i.e.   MS-Windows-type OS and  Intel-type hardware, thereby
enforcing the  market position  of these  companies.   (Are these guys
paying you anything for that favour?)

- Your program's future is threatened. You will have a lot of problems
if the one  specific platform needed  by your  software will cease  to
exist.  Of course, an early ending  of the Windows domination is quite
improbable, but   even Windows  will    change.  E.g.   Lemmi's   18xy
moderator program is  written    very  specifically for  MS-DOS    and
difficult to port  to other platforms.   Now  DOS will stop to  exist.
Windows-ME was the last OS with full  DOS support. Windows-XP descends
from NT, and there you will find only a  DOS _emulation_, which is not
capable to run the 18xy moderator fully  featured. The same may happen
with DirectX  or  MFC as existing   now.  Since these  APIs are closed
source, nobody  will be capable to  grant further support if Microsoft
stops its own support.

So what to do to be portable?

- Use a portable language. Java is portable by definition, but also C,
C++, Perl, Python... are suitable choices. Bad choices: VB, C#, Delphi
(Delphi does now support Linux on x86, but this is only one additional
platform among  hundreds and thousands  else;  the language itself  is
rather  proprietary,    and   there are   AFAIK   no  fully-compatible
third-party compilers).

-  Use portable  and open   source APIs.  SDL  (http://www.libsdl.org)
instead of DirectX, qt (http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/) or GTK+
(http://www.gtk.org) instead of MFC.

While coding  will not be  much more complicated than  before (perhaps
even easier...) and  your  programs will  run as before  in  your used
environment,   it will now be   easy to port your   program to lots of
different platforms (hardware and OS) existing now or in the future.

--
Björn Rabenstein
[PGP-ID] 0x3ADA0C25
[email] b.rabenstein@...
[WWW] http://rabe.home.pages.de

hi,

today i found some time on the side to run the 18c2c visio stuff through acrobat
distiller
at work and the good news is that after that the zip-file of all pdfs is still
about 18
megs as compared to 68 (there are rare cases where commercial software has its
uses ;-),
just like the visio archive. i tried to make a reduced quality version at 300
dpi but for
reasons probably only known to m$ (new owner of visio) and/or adobe they came
out larger
that the 600 dpi version...
the bad news for tonight is that i still cannot access robins server from a
browser (only
way to do ftp at work) and the cdrw i put it on to post from home seems
defective - so
it's gotta wait till tomorrow.

good night,

joachim

Check your PASV setting.  I have had at least one
other person who had trouble with PASV mode.
Theoretically, my FTP server should handle PASV mode
just fine, but some programs have trouble with it.

RB


--- Joachim Ring <jring@...> wrote:
> hi,
>
> today i found some time on the side to run the 18c2c
> visio stuff through acrobat distiller
> at work and the good news is that after that the
> zip-file of all pdfs is still about 18
> megs as compared to 68 (there are rare cases where
> commercial software has its uses ;-),
> just like the visio archive. i tried to make a
> reduced quality version at 300 dpi but for
> reasons probably only known to m$ (new owner of
> visio) and/or adobe they came out larger
> that the 600 dpi version...
> the bad news for tonight is that i still cannot
> access robins server from a browser (only
> way to do ftp at work) and the cdrw i put it on to
> post from home seems defective - so
> it's gotta wait till tomorrow.
>
> good night,
>
> joachim
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Mark,
          I've written an 1830 Moderator program in Visual Basic, and I
agree with Tom M.  It was easier to draw tiles in their rotated position
than try to rotate bitmaps.  Also recognize that you will have to rotate
the tiles 60 degrees (eg: not square) and will not get good line edges due
to pixel interpolation.

Some examples of my program's output are in the pages here:
http://home.attbi.com/~dmitton/18xxpbem.htm
(I won't say they are bug free or finished though)

          If you think this is "too hard" then bury it in a subroutine
somewhere.
Think Object oriented.
          I did.  I just call a routine DrawTile(hexcoord, tileno, orient)
and the problem is reduced to a previously solved problem.

If we wish to carry on this subject, we should probably take it to 18xx-Softdev
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/18xx-softdev/

          Dave.
hmmm, I should start some PBEM games again.

On 4/2/2002 09:43 AM -0800, Tom M wrote:
>I've done some coding, and understand doing it the way
>that is easiest for the programmer.
>
>Tom
>
>--- ganraeln <ganraeln@...> wrote:
> > Tom,
> >
> > I have no wish to write code to do image rotations,
> > so I'm going to
> > create (or someone with the interest can do it) a
> > .bmp file for each
> > tile that has that tile in each of its six
> > orientations.  I applaud
> > the 1830 programmers for doing the rotation code,
> > but I'm looking to
> > make the code-work as easy as possible (for me) to
> > do.
> >
> > -Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)
> >
> >
> > --- In 18xx@y..., Tom M <starfury_42@y...> wrote:
> > > Why not create a .bmp of each tile you'll need,
> > then
> > > have the program rotate it for placement?  That's
> > how
> > > 1830 did it.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > > --- ganraeln <ganraeln@y...> wrote:
> > > > --- In 18xx@y..., Tom M <starfury_42@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > > > Are you talking about a .bmp extension on a
> > tile
> > > > image
> > > > > file?
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom
> > > >
> > > > Yes, I am talking about .bmp files.  I need the
> > tile
> > > > images in
> > > > exacting images, and in specific positions
> > within
> > > > the bitmap file
> > > > (think Civ2 or Civ3 image files, just .bmp
> > instead
> > > > of .pcx).  I'll be
> > > > happy to show any interested parties my template
> > > > file that they can
> > > > use to do the work.
> > > >
> > > > -Ganraeln (a.k.a. Mark Frazier)
> > > >

On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:10:12 +0200, Bjoern Rabenstein
<b.rabenstein@...> wrote:

>Sorry  for the  following  tech  talk...   since I think   it is quite
>important (and the 18xx-softdev list seems to  be more or less dead at
>the moment)  I could   not  resist to post  this.   Non-coders, please
>ignore!

[So I couldn't resist to reply, neither... even though you're not
quoting my message directly... I'm the guy who's been developing the
Delphi 18xx Game Moderator... without much success.]

[A note on the tone of my reply... I absolutely do not intend this as
being a war of religion.  So feel free to insert <g>s and smilies and
any other emoticons you prefer, wherever they're missing.]

>- You are forcing all users of your software to  use only one specific
>platform,  i.e.   MS-Windows-type OS and  Intel-type hardware, thereby
>enforcing the  market position  of these  companies.   (Are these guys
>paying you anything for that favour?)

Nobody is forcing the users... this is a hobby.  We dedicate our spare
time to develop... and maybe sooner or later, some of the subscribers
here will be able to dedicate some of their time to using our apps.

Microsoft and Intel are not actually paying me, nor any other
developer here, probably.  That's exactly the problem... noone is
paying us to develop this type of software... so we apply the skills
we have... and probably the skills we have, have something to do with
the job we have, and the guys that *are* paying us.

My job is to develop database applications, as a consultant (I have my
own very small firm) in Italy.  What OS do you expect my customers to
have?  Unix is almost only installed in the universities and in some
research centers... and neither of these usually need database
applications.  You can find some Macs only in typography related
facilities.  Linux is growing... and I'm prepared.  Outside of Italy,
in the EU or in the US this may be different.

>- Your program's future is threatened. You will have a lot of problems
>if the one  specific platform needed  by your  software will cease  to
>exist.  Of course, an early ending  of the Windows domination is quite
>improbable, but   even Windows  will    change.  E.g.   Lemmi's   18xy
>moderator program is  written    very  specifically for  MS-DOS    and
>difficult to port  to other platforms.   Now  DOS will stop to  exist.
>Windows-ME was the last OS with full  DOS support. Windows-XP descends
>from NT, and there you will find only a  DOS _emulation_, which is not
>capable to run the 18xy moderator fully  featured. The same may happen
>with DirectX  or  MFC as existing   now.  Since these  APIs are closed
>source, nobody  will be capable to  grant further support if Microsoft
>stops its own support.

This is a minor issue.  I've used Clipper for years, and I don't have
the source (obviously).  Nantucket has died.  CA has taken up clipper
and dumped it.  But nothing has changed.  The world is still full of
Clipper applications and developers.  Maintenance is possible, even
without Nantucket and CA.  There's a whole bunch of third-party
components available (with or without source) to do almost anything
with Clipper.

Delphi is the same... the internet allows the development community to
survive and grow independently from Borland.  And I *do* have the
Delphi sources.  If Borland dies, I can continue to develop and
compile.

And yes... DOS will die... so what?  You don't *have* to upgrade to
Windows XP... you can buy a used 486 with DOS 5 installed for a few
bucks, if you're that interested in Lemmi's moderator.  I suspect it
would cost less than a GameBoy... less than a 18xx game box... or most
other equipment people use to have fun.

>So what to do to be portable?
>
>- Use a portable language. Java is portable by definition, but also C,
>C++, Perl, Python... are suitable choices.

Since I develop OO that would leave me with Java and C++... wow!!.
C++ is a mess and ties the developer to some framework of MFC or
equivalent (or do you really expect us to write from scratch,
reimplementing everything... even a simple window).  I wouldn't touch
C++ with a 10 foot pole (I may be exagerating a bit here).

Java is portable "by definition"... that's the problem... it only
moves the problem from the compiler to the JVM... which are *not* all
created equal.  I'd then have to force users to use this or that
version of a JVM... a friend of mine has been there.

And are you sure that "portable" is equivalent to "immortal".  I don't
think there is any correlation between the two.  Java is portable, but
will it survive?

C and C++ are portable?!?  They are the same way Object Pascal could
be... you just need to reimplement a compiler for each platform...
*and* make sure they behave *exactly* the same way.  Maybe a "if" is
portable... or a "for" is portable... but how about all those library
calls 95% of C apps are made up of?

>Bad choices: VB, C#, Delphi
>(Delphi does now support Linux on x86, but this is only one additional
>platform among  hundreds and thousands  else;  the language itself  is
>rather  proprietary,    and   there are   AFAIK   no  fully-compatible
>third-party compilers).

Let's see C# is the M$ version of Delphi... that is risky actually...
I try to keep away from M$ development tools.  VB is even worse... OO
is impossible... and anyway VB is dead... unless you consider VB.Net.

That actually leaves me with Object Pascal (OP for short... ie Delphi
and Kylix) or Java.  Java is not a bad language.  Single inheritance,
multiple interface... like OP.  Serialization... like OP.  It doesn't
have a good support for enumerated types, but it implements support
for threading better.  Anyway Java and OP are *very* similar.  Do you
actually think it would take that long to port a fully OO OP app to
Java?

>-  Use portable  and open   source APIs.  SDL  (http://www.libsdl.org)
>instead of DirectX, qt (http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/) or GTK+
>(http://www.gtk.org) instead of MFC.

I'll have to ask my customers what they think about these. <bg>  How
long do you expect is needed to pickup one of these frameworks?  Are
these available for Java?  IIRC Java has Swing right?  The last time I
saw a Swing app, it looked quite primitive... is it better now?

>While coding  will not be  much more complicated than  before (perhaps
>even easier...) and  your  programs will  run as before  in  your used
>environment,   it will now be   easy to port your   program to lots of
>different platforms (hardware and OS) existing now or in the future.

The programs *might* run as before, but slower (I'm still only
considering Java).  Delphi does not generate bytecode, like Java.

This is another Chimera.  Java and C++ are just templates or
standards... just like SQL.  The real world says: different
implementations of the same standard, differ... and standards evolve.
Do you really think it is possible to write an app, today, that can
survive say 10 years without any maintenance?  Just the differences in
integer types supported by the different platforms is a nightmare, per
se.  OP has few base types, *unless* you're interested in interacting
with other apps... if you start using DCOM, Corba or anything else you
soon find yourself lost in the tons of different string and numerical
types.  Do you think this could actually be *easier*?

The Lemmi moderator, which is implemented in C (I don't know which
compiler and framework), AFAIK, and which only uses a simple text and
mouse interface, has not been ported to anything other than DOS... Do
you really want to convince us that it would have cost the same to
write as a portable C app?

And how about maintenance?  Suppose we do write Java... are we
supposed to have all the possible JVM installed, just to test.  I'm
not a corporation.  I have *one* computer at home (where I usually
develop the 18xx thing) and 5 or 6 at the office.  Where am I going to
install all the different JVM to test this thing?  I have no Unix box
and no Mac box... and I will never have all the OS (with all the
different versions and combinations of IE, Netscape, Opera, etc...
required).

...Or maybe you prefer I let the users test it... the M$ way.<g>

Even though I understand your position, and I partially agree (as
stated I avoid using M$ development tools, for now), I think you're
picking on the wrong guys here.  If anything will ever come out of the
development stage here, you probably won't be paying anything for it.
So, any way you put it, you'll be getting more than you'll be paying
for it.

Oh, and BTW: the application I'm working on is supposed to be web
based.  The TileDesigner and GameSetDesigner apps are Windows only
(and will probably never go beyond Linux)... but they're both actually
just a GUI wrapper on text configuration files which can be modified
with any editor... and which might evolve in XML configuration files.
There'll be a limit on the Game Moderator server, which will have to
be a Win or Linux box.  The game players (clients) could just use any
HTML browser.  So I don't actually consider this architecture to be
*that* narrow.

Regards (and sorry to those that are not interested for the wasted
bandwidth),

--
Marco Rocci
MicroEra srl
Turin, Italy
-----------------
vota contro lo SPAM su: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/

Dear All,

As 18xx isn't that much crowded, there isn't an immediate need,
but of course discussion on 18xx software development is
invited to relocate to 18xx-softdev

You aren't required to believe in programming by committee to join
18xx-softdev.

BTW, I've just uploaded a sample SVG to the 18xx-softdev file area.

(Which gives just basic tile layout, not like Michael Brünkers
nice sample)

Regards,
Peter Jacobi

P.S. Isn't PNG directly supported since Win98 and 2000? Seems a waste
to have all those uncompressed BMP lying around. (SetDIBitsToDevice
in GDI - DirectX uses IE DLLs to load images anyway).



__________________________________________________
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On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Marco Rocci wrote:
> >-  Use portable  and open   source APIs.  SDL  (http://www.libsdl.org)
> >instead of DirectX, qt (http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/) or GTK+
> >(http://www.gtk.org) instead of MFC.
>
> I'll have to ask my customers what they think about these. <bg>  How
> long do you expect is needed to pickup one of these frameworks?  Are
> these available for Java?  IIRC Java has Swing right?  The last time I
> saw a Swing app, it looked quite primitive... is it better now?
Swing is Okay, but Java GUI is still slower if it runs on a JVM. Qt is a
very well designed OO Toolkit, but you can only use it as GPL or pay for
it. GTK+ is not as well designed, though usable. You can use it to develop
commercial apps for free, though, as its LGPL. KDE is based on Qt and
GNOME on GTK (GTK is the actual toolkit written in C and GTK+ a c++
wrapper around GTK). Both have many language bindings, such as perl,
python or java. The last time I checked Pascal was not among them, but I
could imagine it will, once gcc supports pascal (still alpha last time I
checked).
If I was to choose a toolkit as developer I'd take Qt (as I think it's got
the best design, even better than Java SDK) and write apps in Java or C++
for it.
It's important to realize that the toolkit is far more important that the
language you use. The language will determine wheather you have a garbage
collector or not (for example) but the toolkit will determine what you'll
have to implement yourself and what's already done.
I'd just combine the best of the two (if it has a stable binding) and for
me that would be Java + Qt

> The programs *might* run as before, but slower (I'm still only
> considering Java).  Delphi does not generate bytecode, like Java.
Java can be done either way: compiled or byte-code interpreted.

> The Lemmi moderator, which is implemented in C (I don't know which
> compiler and framework), AFAIK, and which only uses a simple text and
> mouse interface, has not been ported to anything other than DOS... Do
> you really want to convince us that it would have cost the same to
> write as a portable C app?
it doesn't cost more. Some apps I use today are decades old. Those are the
GNU tools that decend from older UNIX tools that decend....

> Oh, and BTW: the application I'm working on is supposed to be web
> based.  The TileDesigner and GameSetDesigner apps are Windows only
> (and will probably never go beyond Linux)... but they're both actually
> just a GUI wrapper on text configuration files which can be modified
> with any editor... and which might evolve in XML configuration files.
> There'll be a limit on the Game Moderator server, which will have to
> be a Win or Linux box.  The game players (clients) could just use any
> HTML browser.  So I don't actually consider this architecture to be
> *that* narrow.
sounds great

--
Gregor Zeitlinger
gregor@...